Truth, Justice, and Courage with Dr. Niaz Kasravi

Transcript auto-generated from the episode audio; formatting has been cleaned up, but wording is verbatim.

Hi. Welcome to And Now Love. My guest today is Doctor Niaz Kasravi, I am so excited to talk with her about the work she does. It's apparent that the strides she makes in the support of justice come from her heart, from a place of love for humanity. Doctor Kasravi is a national expert and advocate on criminal justice, social justice and racial justice. With more than 17 years of experience leading projects across the country. She is the founder and director of the Avalon Institute for Applied Research, a research, advocacy and training institute.

She's also the former director of the Criminal Justice Program for the NAACP. She holds a PhD in criminology, Law and Society from the University of California at Irvine. Doctor Kasravi was born in Iran and migrated to the United States with her family in 1984. And I could say a million more things, but I think now we need to talk. Hi. Hi. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. It's really my pleasure. So we have so much to talk about, and we may run out of time, but I wanted to know, first off, what got you started in this field of criminology, law and society?

Well, it wasn't planned. And when I was finally ready to select a major in college, I was actually determined to go into psychology and go into therapy later. That's sort of where my path had led me. Oh, a nice crossover for us. I think. Yes, for sure. You know, I figured I this is the you know, one of the only times in my life where I'm going to have the opportunity to just explore and learn things that are interesting to me. So I ended up taking a criminology course and, and then another one, because it was really fascinating for me to learn about the American criminal justice system, something that had never crossed my mind that I'd be interested in.

And it had a lot to do with the professors and mentors I had in college who really brought this subject to life. Right? It's where I learned about the inequalities and the injustices within the criminal legal system here in America. And I think as an immigrant coming to this country, especially from a country that doesn't guarantee you equality and nondiscrimination, learning about it in the U.S. was shocking, because when you come here as an immigrant, this is not what you expect. You kind of see the brochure, right? The land of opportunity. Yeah.

And that's not to say that that's not true. The reason I can do this work, and I have been able to do the things that I've been able to do in my career is because of all the opportunities I've had. But we have our issues and they're not often advertised. And so when I learned about the systemic racism within the justice system, the oppression and brutality in law enforcement that, you know, often exists. I learned more about how, you know, the criminal justice system really targets the poor people who have mental health issues, people who have drug dependency issues.

And, you know, these folks make up the majority of our criminal legal system, unfortunately. I it was shocking. But also, I think my mentors taught me that you have the opportunity to make change here in America. In fact, that's how we've always moved forward throughout our history and overcome a lot of the dark times that this nation and most nations have had in their past is by fighting. And one would hope that through the course of taking a course like that, that you would come away thinking, I have the strength to make some changes here. You know, you learn that the system, even though the laws make the peer equal on their face, the way they're applied is not equal.

When you apply it to a society that's not on equal footing to communities who don't have access to the resources, the results end up being promoting more inequality. My mentors also showed how we have the power to change things, right? Each of us. And so I decided to really go forth with a criminal, criminal justice and major and criminology, law and society. And I didn't know whether I would go into law or whether I would go into academia. But the more I kind of advanced in my studies, I really had a desire to be, you know, boots on the ground with the communities who are leading the campaigns and the fights to improve this broken criminal justice system.

And so I went to the into the advocacy space. I see. And that seems hard to do. Maybe when you're in that world, there are places that you know you can go where you can become part of an advocacy team or some such thing, but it seems so vast. How do you how do you do you have to find a niche? Do you just. Generalize? It was hard. You know, I was in grad school and often, although it's changing a bit, but often graduate school prepares you mostly for research and academia. Right. And I found that as important and vital as it is, I found it to be a little bit disconnected, from the community is that, you know, the research in the studies are working on and addressing.

And so there I saw a gap that I wanted to bridge. Right. I wanted to bridge the gap of like bringing my knowledge and expertise and making it available to organizations and communities who are fighting the good fight. I see. So could you take the research that some of your peers might be doing, and then say, okay, so here's what this is showing. Let me go out and see how we can make this different. Yeah, 100%. And it was hard in the beginning, going back to your question of how difficult it was to get into this field. I really banged on every door.

You did. And what kind of doors are those? Initially wanted to be in the human rights space to do this work. And, you know, I think civil rights and human rights are very interconnected. And so I kind of consider it all human rights. But I applied to all the jobs that I could find and various different organizations. I reached out and talk to people to kind of get advice about how to get my foot in the door in this field. And it was really tough. You know, I think there are, folks who and programs perhaps, that offer internships and things for students to kind of get involved and have connections in these spaces before graduating.

But for me, that I wasn't I wasn't that I see. And so I remember I would get rejection after rejection because, you know, it's is hard. It was hard to break. In because you have no experience. And you don't have any experience until you have experienced things and yet experienced the same old story. Exactly. I did have my research experience in the field a little bit. That was really helpful. But ultimately what happened is I banged on the door. I got connected basically to the newly hired director of the US Human Rights program at Amnesty International, and I just set up an informational interview.

I did say I'm looking for work, but mostly I just want to come and learn about your program, learn about this work, get advice from you about how to, you know, get a foot in the door in this field. And so I showed up in DC and he was like, how can I help? It was his first week on the job. I thought, oh yeah, it was a very new program. And and so we had a conversation and I told him what I was interested in. And he had some actually, that first time he had some letters from prisoners that he had to read through, and categorize and assess. And he's like, do you have some time?

I said, sure. And so we sat together. He handed me the pile and we, you know, I reviewed the letters and I kind of categorize them, and I and I, and I assessed them a bit and then I left. So so that was the first initial contact, but there was no work. Right. I come back to California. This was out in Washington, D.C., I come back to California and 911 happens. We start to see a lot of anti-immigrant policies and practices go into action. And I was not working at that point. So my, friend who is an immigration attorney contacted me and said, can you come and help us down at the I.n.s. office?

That was immigration. Naturalization services was was what it was called back then. Because there's a lot of people coming in based on a new law, the NSA's program, that required men of a certain age from majority Muslim countries to come in and register themselves with the INS. These are people who who are on visas or not, citizens. And people were following the law by coming in and introducing themselves. But there was no process or protocol to deal with this large and influx of folks coming in. And there were language barriers. And so they just kind of needed all hands on deck.

So I went down there and just down here in downtown L.A., and it was a mess. There were just hundreds and thousands of people lined up various offices. They weren't folks that work there didn't know how to treat them properly. I just jumped in and did whatever I could and came back home. And I wrote the director of the human rights program at Amnesty International. And I said, you know, this is happening. And he said, yeah, I'd heard about it. But if you'd like, you can write up research memo on it, just kind of what you're experiencing or what you're seeing.

So I did that. And then his bosses over at the UK, because amnesty is, headquartered in the United Kingdom, reached out shortly after that and said, we heard this is happening. What are you doing about it? As the newly and he said, I actually have a doctoral graduate working on this issue. And so that's kind of how I was able to get my foot in the door. They created a position, for me at amnesty to go and do work around racial profiling and human rights. That's amazing that you must have really rounded this up. Well, in your description of what was happening, enough so that they could, you know, see the lights go on and say, wait a minute, we've got to talk about this.

I think it's also you just got to do it. Sometimes people think that these problems are so enormous that how can I as one individual do anything. But it takes so little courage to just take that first step and just write about, for example, my case, what are you seeing, what is happening to folks coming in and trying to abide by the law and then they're being treated in this way. So what was happening is they were being relatively mistreated because there was no process of how to deal with this large group of people. Mistreated in what way dismissed or.

Get in line. They were just like being manhandled. I see, and and these people who were in charge of this process or group of scenarios didn't have enough information themselves to know how to do this properly. Yeah. So it was just a big mishmash of thing. 100%. People coming in frightened and. Yeah, and what happened is there was such a huge number of people reporting that they couldn't get through them in the course of a normal business day. So all different scenarios and different locations, they would be held overnight. They wouldn't be allowed to go back and come back the next day.

So they would put them into the basement and hold them, or they would take them to jail or transfer them to prison. And in some cases say, you know, we're sending these people over to you due to the war on terror. And so, you know, officials who had no information thought these were terrorists, you know, versus people who just come in to bide by the law. And so it was just documenting some of that. Right. And that's what it was. I think that a lot of my experiences have shown me that you don't have to tackle the entire gigantic problem all at once.

You just have to play a part in it. And that starts with the first step. And even just beginning to tell the truth about a situation. Maybe you maybe you're not in a position to really act on it, but just to say this is what's really happening, right? And and we have to acknowledge the facts. A lot of this work is about telling the truth despite the pushback. Despite that, it will make people uncomfortable and sad and angry. And I think that there's something to be said about just being mindful disrupter. You got to shake people out of their comfort zone to make any change.

I think so. And in your reporting on on this particular issue, all those years ago, the people that you handed this information over to then did what did they do what they could to effect change? Yeah. Based on this research and sort of the desire and the goals of the program director at that point and what he had envisioned us working on or what was happening at the moment. Right. Because you got to be responsive to what's happening on the ground. And this was a big issue that the organization had decided to prioritize. So I went on board as a research assistant, and I wore many hats.

It was a relatively you know, they created the position really fast. And so we had and it was a new program. So we all it was just two of us. So we had to do everything. And we decided to hold a number of, public hearings across the country to hear from people who were being impacted by these discriminatory policies, racial profiling, which means, you know, the police are targeting you. Law enforcement is targeting you because of your race, gender, religion, nationality, what have you. So sort of like characteristics that you, you know, just their innate.

Yes, to talk about what is happening to communities after 911 and before 911, because racial profiling has been a challenge and an issue for this country for a very long time. Yes, right. It's just nine over 11. And these like political, historical moments and political events that happen bring new communities to the table. So people from the Middle East and Muslim communities, or people who just look like they could be from that region of the world, were being targeted. We held a series of public hearings from across the country, heard from communities, heard from law enforcement themselves.

And it was really fascinating because we had a I think it was an Oakland where we had a black police officer take the stand and talk about how when he has been in uniform, he's actually racially profiled. And when he's been out of uniform, he's actually been the target of racial profiling by other law enforcement. Right? So it's a systemic issue. It's not like an individual issue. Yes. And we put out a report, and then we set about trying to pass laws and advocate both on the international level, but particularly also in the US, to help pass racial profiling laws both nationally and across various states.

And have you seen the fruits of that? Some. But often even the policies that do get passed have like a missing piece that makes them not as effective as they can be. So first of all, how are you defining racial profiling? Right. So you have to define the problem properly in order to address it. Are you requiring data collection? If you do find evidence of racial profiling by law enforcement, is there a consequence? Is there a demand to change? Is, you know, so all of these things have to fit in within a policy for it to be effective. And often, you know, 1 or 2 pieces might be missing that that makes the policy not as effective as it could be.

So there's definitely states that have racial profiling laws, but a lot of them are lacking like composite of set of components. And is that a difficulty in the system at large in that there are so many different modes of operating that there's not kind of a consistent feeling about what humanity deserves from state to state or city to city, town to town. Yeah, policing is hyper localized. There is no overall system that governs all police departments. You have as many policies and as many realities on the ground, both within communities and political, as you have police departments, sure.

Different communities, different levels of income, different groups of people. Different political influences. Different ages. Different types of people who are in power. Right. So it becomes difficult to have like a national standard and then try to infuse it. But it's helpful. Right? The problem is we've never been able to pass and racial profiling acts, all these years. So on a national. Level, yeah. So that there are kind of loopholes in the system that there's a way to kind of maneuver around what is written is that do you think that's typically planned, like, do we need to be able to find a way out when somebody comes to us and says, hey, or is it just by accident, by the breadth of knowledge that's required to complete this all encompassing thing is so vast that you're going to miss something?

Is it planned to have laws that are not super effective? Yes. Or is it a function of this being in complicated issue? Yes, maybe I for me, based on my experience and what I've seen, it's often a lack of willingness to take accountability and to hold law enforcement that violate people's rights fully accountable in a real, consistent way. That issue is very complicated in my mind. I don't think it's very complicated to create policies that are effective, but I think it's complicated to get political support both to pass those policies and then to implement them.

Some of it is financial. A lot of it is the political power of law enforcement. The fact that, fear of crime and public safety is such a political bargaining chip and is played so well by politicians to get votes, people tend to vote based on fear often and tough on crime. Rhetoric has shown to be effective, unfortunately. And also, you know, like I said earlier, law enforcement has amassed an enormous amount of political power and influence. And so they're very well protected and aware of protecting their own against full transparency and accountability oftentimes.

Unfortunately. Yeah. So I would imagine that many of these law enforcement groups are in a community themselves where they it's very hard to, you know, put your peer up against the wall because they've done something that they need to be accountable for. I mean, up against the wall. And hey, let's talk about this. Yes, but I'm going to slam you against the wall. Right. And so a lot of that just must go in sort of low radar because it's just too hard to is it better or is it worse to disrupt our community over this particular case? Right. That's definitely a factor.

It's very difficult for even from within their own community for somebody to step up. It takes courage and it takes being willing to put yourself at risk. Right. Because these are people you depend on when you're out there on the streets and fighting a situation and, you know, fighting crime. So these are people who need to have your back in those situations. And so if you're going to step out and and say something about somebody who maybe has overstepped or done something wrong, then you're putting yourself in your own safety at risk. It's a tough job, right?

I mean, this is how. You get around that. You know, so many people have said this quote and it's it's so cliche in some ways, but with great power comes great responsibility, right? These are the things if you want to be a good human being and in whatever profession you have, you have to accept the responsibility that comes with it. No, I have a lot of conversations around this issue. Someone said something to me that that I think really rings true about how I feel. So it's not that I think every police officer is bad or police officers are bad people in general.

I think the role that law enforcement is currently playing in the US and the way they're playing it is not good. Right? So it's not about the individual officers who are in there, because I know folks, you know, who have like law enforcement in their family, and I know many people who are law enforcement, the officers themselves, and they're they're nice. They're nice, but they're out of what they're doing. And a lot of them go in there with like, great intention. Right? But the way that the whole system and structure is set up creates so much violence and oppression and discrimination, and it's so protected from any sort of real transparency and accountability that that's where the problem is.

It's not with the individual actors, even though they make up this, this, this whole. But we got to kind of tackle. The larger level. It would be as if every almost every individual is entering a field like this, because they want to do something good for their peers, for their community, you know. Yeah. I wonder too, then, if you when you're studying, preparing your course, is this part of the program our students taught that you're going to come up against situations where you've got to understand that you're responsible for doing the right thing, and it may not be the right thing according to your peer.

Does that come up? I mean, how that's a lot to try and teach someone. Yeah, there's there's a lot of great training programs. There's a lot of, funding that's been poured into improved training for law enforcement. Unfortunately, that never correlates with better outcomes. Training has never proven to be effective, because what happens when you're in the classroom room, and then what you see and what you're taught by your colleagues when you're on the streets and within the culture is very different. And so it doesn't always correlate. Yes. As is the case for so many different endeavors.

Well, I, I didn't really mean to focus on this, but it's really fascinating. And it kind of speaks to how somehow, some way we all have to get back to the best of us. And and part of that is really, as you said, you know, understanding what you're responsible for as a human. And instead of going against the grain or taking the easy way out, we all have to find a way to support what we know is right, which is right for the people we love and people we care about. The people we don't know who deserve better. Yeah for sure. And I thank you for doing what you're doing because I think you you step out of line.

I do. To the dismay of my friends and family, I'm always stepping out of line. So, I mean, they're proud of me, but, you know, I. Bet they are. But they. You worry about you. I'm sure. So we don't have to talk about this if you don't like. But it must be much different now in terms of what you feel personally than what it was like, say, 15 years ago or 20 years ago. Is that true or is there discussion amongst your friends, your peers, who are doing things similarly, that you have a whole new area to contend with in that if I really say these things, what's going to happen to me down the road is, is have you always had to contend with that, some sort of personal fear?

Not to this degree. What's happening now in terms of advocacy for marginalized groups, for law enforcement accountability, criticize izing the system being labeled as somehow un-American or, you know, you hate us type of, label, first of all, is false. Yes. But the degree is is different. This work has never been popular. When I first started, I graduated, I'm going to date myself. I have I graduated in 2001. You just have a kid. Just a. Kid. This was not a very popular like field. Nobody was talking about criminal justice reform. In fact, my family, especially my family in Iraq.

What is she doing? Is it a doctor? Is it a lawyer? Is it engineer at this? So, you know. And this thing she's doing is needed in the United States. Right? Right. But then there came a time. So it was, you know, people thought, she's just super sensitive and caring and, you know, and then there, there was a time where this kind of work advocating for reforming and transforming the system became complete, like dinner table conversation. Every city, almost every city and, and and county and the nation definitely was taking on some aspect of reforming the criminal justice system, whether it's like police accountability, whether it's reentry support, rehabilitation, you know, things like that, you know, helping end the the drug war because it hasn't been so some but people started talking about it.

It became a lot more popular. And this has something to do with who's governing. Yeah, to a great extent. It also had a lot to do at that point. And and often. But it only is talked about, I think in situations where it might be politically advantages. So people start talking about it more. When we had fiscal crises across the board in a major way, you know, on the local, state, national level budgets were an issue for for governments, right? And they started doing analysis of what they're spending money on. And, and they saw how much money was being poured into criminal justice without any real kind of outcome, you know, greater public safety compared to what the investment was.

So then they started talking about this. It was a little bit more popular. Folks are still talking about it. So it's not like people forgot, but it's a little bit less safe because of the political rhetoric that's directed against anyone who's advocating to improve the system. And so it's scary. I mean, people are being detained when they're trying to reenter the country for the work that they're doing, whether it's around immigration enforcement or, you know, ensuring due process for immigration enforcement or policing or anything that is not really the status quo that, that that the new powers that be.

So if you were to leave the country. I don't know. But I think about it. Yeah. I've never been one to not be vocal, on things. So if they wanted to search my social media, they could probably find stuff they don't like. Yes. Right. And so my come back often to this kind of mentality is I don't hate the country. In fact, I've had all these amazing opportunities to do the work that I do that is so important and meaningful to me. I think if you're trying to improve something, it means you actually care for it. If you edit it, you would just leave, right?

I mean, that's kind of the correlation you would see. Yeah. So so it's it's a bit more risky. It's more fear. I think, first of all. And then whether that fear pans out into actual like something happening to you remains to be seen. Yes. But I think the moment requires a level of courage that maybe wasn't required to this extent. When this issue was popular or safer. Right. Because it was kind of across the board, sort of expected as a mode of behavior that we're going to look into things, we're going to support those people who are suffering or who need our help.

And, and now those communities, somehow the almost will often, I think, represent in the minds of some people who don't deserve help or people who we should be afraid of, or who we need to isolate or control or or hold captive on some level, whatever that is. And I mean, it's kind of fascinating to watch how that changes over time. I mean, I imagine we're going to evolve back to something where we're we're more I hope we're receptive to the things that you're looking into. And, and that we as humans want to expand our knowledge and what we know about each other and find that helping each other is sort of more beneficial than not.

Yeah, that's my hope. And it ebbs and flows. You know, we go through these cycles so nothing is ever permanent. And that's why it's important to do this work. Right. Because without these disruptions, without these like taking of risks and having courage to step out of line, we wouldn't have shifts towards the better. Yeah. I mean, I think it's important to figure out how to change the status quo when the status quo isn't serving. Most of us there. Was a time where I felt that people who didn't disagree with me, maybe they didn't like what I stood for.

Maybe they just, you know, respectfully disagreed. But at the current moment, somehow it feels like they folks who disagree with with you politically almost see you as an enemy or as an evil. And I think that's the dangerous part. So regardless of what your political affiliation or like beliefs are, I think that's dangerous territory when because of your different political views, you're labeled as an enemy. I think it's dangerous and scary. I think so, too. And it's it's really brand new for us. I think it's probably happened during the course of history to be in a position where people almost say, well, I can't have dinner with them because I don't agree with them politically.

Wow. I mean, I don't remember that happening until recently, where there's so much division that it's it's even down to sitting and having a meal with someone, with people that you cared about. And now you can't you can't do that anymore. And and I understand because we all feel so much fire, you know, about our positions. Many of us do that. It's it's hard to hear somebody who has a completely opposing view. But, you know, I don't know, America is sort of based on that. We we're allowed to have different opinions. We hear each other, we learn from each other, we don't agree.

And we come and meet in the middle or someplace close to the middle. And and we're an ongoing experiment. And that's just not what's going on right now. Yeah. We're we're all it's either what I believe or it's nothing. And how many times can you believe they believe that? I mean, it's we're just so outraged at each other. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think it'll last, but I think the direction we go in, we go into depends a lot on what each of us do at this moment. Right. So if you don't want to speak up, if you just want to put your head down, tend to your own affairs and not care what's happening to other people.

If most people decide to do that this country will go in a different way versus if most people say no. I know this doesn't affect me or my family, but that is not cool. What's happening to these people over here that are not me? So I'm going to speak up. I'm going to demand things from my elected official. I'm going to demand things for my local police. We pay for for their salaries. We elect them. Right. And I know this is set a lot thrown up, but they do work. For us and that's a hard thing for people to keep in mind, especially when we're afraid of those entities and they work for us, but yet we fear them.

And so we insulate ourselves. Right? So so I think we're in a critical moment where each of our decisions, whether we realize it or not, in terms of what we are willing to do, and not everybody has to go up and hold a protest sign. A lot of people should and they can and they want to. Right? But there are so many ways to take a stand for your values and just kind of erase the D or the R next to the political candidates name. And just like think about what do I believe is right and then go advocate for that. That's a really good thing to think about.

Erase the D or the R and just listen to the message. And how does that fit with what you think is correct for. Humanity and not what social media or specific media outlet thinks like? Really do some deep searching like within yourself, around like where are my lines? Like what are my values? And so I think and it doesn't have to be some big long term project. But but I think what we do now matters in a different way than in the past. So what would you you've made a couple of suggestions, but what are some good ways that we can sort of tip ourselves in the direction of speaking up for what we know is right?

I have a feeling, for example, a lot of people who are protesting for whatever cause that may be or who think they could protest, think, well, there's, you know, there's already 2000 people over there, so I don't need to participate, but it's only 2000 people because there were 2000 individuals who made that choice. How do we convince ourselves, really, that as individuals we are meaningful to the system? Oh yeah, I have a meme that I love that that says, but what can I do? I'm only one person said 7 billion people, you know. So I think if everybody felt like I'm just one person, nothing will ever change.

Yeah. So I think there's a variety of things and people are comfortable with, like some people want to donate to their favorite organizations. Advocacy organizations are being targeted. They're losing funding. There are so many issues that they have to deal with that they need a lot of support now, can get involved locally or with a national group, but whatever, like is closer to your heart in terms of what you want to work on, right? You can talk about these issues in your local city council meeting. You can write letters, you can call your elected official, you can protest, you can educate people.

You can educate yourself. Right. Sometimes I just turn off all of my social media. I don't listen, like to news channels. I just go and do some digging, like, let me see what's going on today around this issue. And I just check various and then I figure out, oh, you kind of come to your own conclusion, friends. So you're seeing, an issue from different points of view, and then you settle with what seems right in your. Yeah, heart. Yeah. And, and I think particularly social media has been it's been wonderful in many ways. But it's also in this moment some people are finding it very toxic, especially because oftentimes these days you don't even know what's true anymore.

There are no more fact checkers. And who is a fact checker anyway to begin with. Right. So sometimes it's helpful for me to just like turn all of that off for sure and go to some trusted, reliable news sources and just kind of read up on what's happening rather than being bombarded with these kind of because what's happening on social media, for example, is things are designed to get your attention and like three seconds. So they have to be gut punch, either in a good way or a bad way. So it's a lot of anxiety and fear and hopefully sometimes joy or happiness, but we see less or less of that.

So sometimes it's just good to to do your own research and, and figure out what you think versus listening to social media or, you know, even political leaders like, are they right? This data that they're throwing at me, for example, about crime being high, are they actually right? Where did they come up with that? Right. It's not these are political talking points. Because then you go and you research for the FBI's own statistics show that these claims are not correct. So then but you have to be open to that. Yes. Because I think safe D is so important.

And one of the things that happens with social media is it plays into your world and what makes you safe and happy and what makes you feel validated. Isn't it true? Yeah, because I'm not big into social media that over the course of time, what you're receiving becomes pretty narrowed and so you lose sight of another opinion or another 27 opinions. Yeah, that you don't even know exist. And you're thinking that everyone is following the same path as you. Yeah. And then you attach yourself to other people in social media who are following the same path.

And, and so that's the view of the world or that's the view of the United States. Yeah. You know, for most of the country. The other thing, like you're saying, like social media directs you to just kind of follow a certain path. Often people don't know diverse communities or diverse families or people from different nationalities or backgrounds. It might be different in some of the states. Some of the coastal states may be, but a lot of the country people are isolated. So I think if you actually reach out to go to the communities, go to their restaurants, go to their culture, like get to meet people, so it humanizes it for you.

So that I think that's a huge step, because this process of dehumanization that happens through, oh, immigrants are bad. They're responsible for crime. Criminals don't deserve due process that like, it's all because we're so isolated. If you sit and get to know a human being for who they are, I think it increases your potential to have empathy and then see similarity ease between yourself and them. Despite all the differences. How do we get people to to do that, to step out of their own circle? It's so comfortable being in your little community, and I think in a lot of communities too, that if you do step out, then you're considered as, you know, sort of an outlier.

Well, so, you know, why are you going over to that restaurant to eat? Right? Right. It's difficult, especially in probably in particular parts of the country, it's a lot more difficult than it is. For example, in LA you can find all kinds of restaurants that were already intermingled a lot. But I do think that the stories we hear through the movies and the media can also have an impact on what we open ourselves to, right? So if you're only seeing certain types of people play certain characters, so like a brown man with facial hair is always going to play or terrorist, I think having those stories told through these big outlets is really important for people to just be open to even stepping out of their comfort zone.

Yes, because you do operate in the world based on those stereotypes. Then, and it's amazing when you stop to consider that, like, I just saw this thing happen. And to me, that instills this fear because that's what I've seen over and over again in the movies. And then but if you look at the reality of it and think, gosh, that's not my reality, that's not this reality. That's something that's been created and played upon over and over again. And there's so much of that. Yeah. I think what you're saying is right. It's so if you live in a community that's pretty homogenous and you don't have a lot of diversity around, you have to go two hours to get to a restaurant that's ethnic.

Let's say it's a little difficult, but there's there's ways there's like, you can read the shows you're exposed to, you can travel. Right? I just think we got to get out of our bubble and we got to. Sometimes you have to wake up and if you're feeling a certain way, you just remind yourself, not convince yourself, at least for me, that people are good and they can be. Despite all the stuff on the exterior like this person has all the desires for their life that I do. They want to be safe. They want to have food on the table. They want their family to have, you know, a roof over their head.

And so you just have to remind yourself of, like the shared humanity and the shared desire for just having a normal life that is at peace. But it's not easy. I think we just get exposed to too much stuff that diverts us from that. But that is super important because basically we all do those things as my friend Doctor Bail would have said, you know, it all starts with the individual, and we have to each make ourselves as whole as we can make ourselves and understand that we all start from a place of love. And that's been sort of encapsulated to a larger degree or not in terms of being able to reach that.

And if we can figure out how to come at life with love. And be brave enough to operate from that place, then we can make a change. And if we start now, I mean it's super, super important. We can see what's happening in our country and in the world as well. And I think we the best thing we can do is listen to our hearts and try to remember that a lot of the way we operate may be done because we've been put in a position to feel a certain way about things, and that may not be the accurate way to feel in terms of coming from a loving position, but we're so used to doing it this way or that way, because our mothers did that, or our ancestors did that, or our community did that, that we lose sight of what we know is a loving position.

And often it just takes 1 or 2 people to like, break the way open. Yes. Right. So you're used to doing things a certain way. It just takes 1 or 2 people who are willing to step out of that comfort zone for you to be like, okay, maybe. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So it's important individual actions and decisions we make have a lot more power than we realize. I think so, and I think we're all looking now to all of these different agencies that operate in the United States, waiting for that one person to kind of establish their opinion on what they know is, which is correct, is strong, is right for the country.

We're just waiting. For a couple of. Those people, at least. Maybe this is my sort of fantasy slash hope in that would do what you're saying. Okay, so this person finally I can take a sigh of relief. They're they're speaking out, they're challenging what's going on. And then hopefully more will fall in line. Do you think that's going to happen? I think so, but I don't think we can. It's interesting what you were saying. It made me think of a conversation that I was having about political leaders in this moment. There are political leaders that are poised to do this things.

It's on us to ask it of them. It's on our it's on communities to make demands and requests from the people who we put in office. So I think if you're going to show up and vote, it's great. We should all do it. But that's just the first step, because after that you have to ask them for what you want. You have. So we can't just vote and say, this person made this speech. And so I know this is what he's going to do or she's going to do. I think the next step is you got to organize as a community. You got to send letters, calls, you know, do office visits, work with organizations that are doing work, campaigning around making demands of political leaders?

So, yes, we need those that one person or those individuals to take those first steps, but we ought to be in the background. Supporting. That 100%. Yeah, that makes sense. And I think that activism as individuals is is really required. Like that is part of who we need to be as Americans and certainly in other countries too. But and I don't think it is something that goes without saying. I think you're right. A lot of people think, okay, I've done this big job. I voted, so at my response, I'm done. And the rest of it's going to take care of itself.

The chips fall where they may and and we'll deal with it. But I think that activism, whatever that means, but just taking part, whatever activism means to you. Is lifelong 100%. Life is hard. It's complicated. People have a lot going on. So I, I, you know, this doesn't have to be some great project where you devote hours and hours unless you want to write. So I get how we can just get completely absorbed into our daily just making it through the day work, family obligations, everything right. But those steps that we take affect all of that in the long run.

It may not be like a day to day thing, or if I don't like, take action on this issue today, something's going to happen. But if you consistently don't do anything that's going to affect all the things that you're juggling on a daily basis in the long run. Yeah. So that's I think the connection we have to make. But you're right, it could be it doesn't have to consume hours of every day. But I do feel like we are all as much as we can be obligated to do a little bit at least. But there are. I've heard a lot in the news about how some politicians are backing away from community meetings because they don't want to hear what their community has to say.

How does a community then wrangle that mean, gosh. This is a shame, but I think you as community member have to continue to push them what their phone lines. Talk to the media about what it's like to have your representative not want to meet with you. It's it's shameful. And I think they know that it is shameful. They know that the politicians who are doing this campaign financing aside, they're going to need those votes. So at some point they're going to have to come to the table. But if you back off and they're already backing off like nothing will happen.

I feel like there's almost, a sense of desperation with some of our representatives. Like, I just got to get through this moment here. I can't I can't speak my mind. I can't do anything. I can't support you people. So I'm just not going to talk to you people. I'm going to make up for it later. But, Cynthia, why can't they talk about things? Right? And it all has to do with this complete mess we've gotten ourselves into with money and politics, right? There is no reason that an elected official can't have an honest conversation about any issue with their constituents, besides the fact that they're going to upset political donors for the most part, maybe the party as a whole and their agenda.

But this whole issue of money and politics, until we address that, I don't think we can get to a true place of just human to human connection within the political system. It seems like like it or not, in people. Many people start out with this wonderful goal of going into politics or going into whatever they go into with the idea that they're going to do something to better the system, better humanity, better communities, and they eventually get to a place where they need financial support in order to have their message heard. And then their message begins to change.

Yeah, I think you just have to ask yourself, at what cost, right? We need people who are striving for change, fighting from the outside, but we also need folks fighting from the inside of systems. But in order to do that, you do have to survive. But the cost of that survival shouldn't be giving up on the principles that are needed at the moment. The really important principles that are needed and values that are needed at the moment. And I think we have gotten to a place where a lot of political leaders can't have that survival like last if they take these kind of values based stances, unfortunately, some of them can, and some of them are, but like so the cost to me isn't worth it.

The cost of not standing up for something that's truly right in order so you can hold office for another four years. What is the good of holding office if you can't do any good. Right? If for another four years you can't stand up for what you know. It's just the job done. Yeah, right. And I'm not locked knocking financial survivor. But there's an ethical question there that I'm sure you have to ask yourself. So you deal with that ethical question a lot in your pursuits. And do you I mean, you're you're in a world where you're trying to help us figure out what is unjust and help those who have suffered injustice come to terms with it.

Do away with it. How do you see the people on both ends relating to you? Do you find the people who you're sort of, let's say, fighting against, understand in a heartfelt way that what you're attempting to do has value, but they can't support it because they're fearful of something else. Or do you find that in some of these instances, people just think you're you're nuts and that what you're doing is so far off base they just can't even go there? And then on the other end, do those people that you're helping understand the value of what you're doing?

It's it's a combination and depends on the campaign. It depends on the ask. It depends on who are making the ask. It depends on what pieces of the campaign you have in place. So even somebody who disagrees with you. But we've played our hand right. And they feel like they have no other option but to acquiesce. They will. Politics can be that sort of a game. I see. And to acquiesce means to give you the opportunity to pursue whatever rights you're pursuing. Right? That's what I mean, to acquiesce to your demands. Yes. Right. But there are situations where we may not have enough political power.

We haven't cross all of our T's and daughter, all of our eyes. And so a person who may not agree with you sees that they don't really have to do what you're asking. So the organizing piece and all of this is very important. So organizing the community to make us organizing your messaging, organizing political pressure, you know, all of these things media campaigns, all of these things have to kind of be in play for the major wins to happen. I see. So, for example, I know that you were dealing with the death penalty in certain states, Maryland.

And how did you prepare for that to be to become an issue that could be heard? I came to the table ten years after the campaign was initially created, and we won that year, but the work had continued for ten years before we I was at the NAACP. At that point. I was the head of the criminal justice program, so I ran our organizations campaign to fight the death penalty in Maryland to help end it. I was going for a vote before the legislature, and the problem that they had run into was the fact that they didn't have enough votes from the black legislators.

And so make sense that the NAACP would step in. So we we came in and we worked with all the partners, some of whom had been at the table for a very long time. We designed a legislative campaign. So kind of tracking who's said they're going to vote which way on this issue, we had to organize the community. We had to bring the community to the table, so to say. So hold kind of awareness raising campaigns around what the death penalty is, the discriminatory impact, the ineffectiveness as a deterrent. The fact is that it's so much more costly than life imprisonment.

We worked with people who had been wrongfully accused and placed and convicted and placed on death row. So exonerees these came to speak about, you know, their wrongful convictions. We had, murder victim families come and advocate, which was probably one of the most kind of deeply moving pieces of this. In addition to the exonerees stories, these personal stories really matter. In these campaigns, I can. Imagine, again, it comes down to the individual. It does. And they came to the table. They said, nothing will bring my loved one back. Do not do this in my name.

And I can't tell you all the legislators that got up and voted to abolish the death penalty, citing the stories of these murder victim's family members. So. And then we had a big media campaign to get this kind of issue in the media. We did some polling around what the messaging should be. So it turns out, as you know, you might know that if you the results can be different, if you just ask people whether they agree with the death penalty or not, versus if you say, do you agree with the death penalty or life in prison without the possibility of parole?

And then the the view often shifts, right? Because at this point you also provided education on all the ways. So the death penalty is not effective. It's costly. It risks innocent lives. It's discriminatory. All. So then that became a winning campaign for us. But it was it was a long road. We got in towards the end and we got in to kind of shift a community and shift kind of some of the votes on the legislature. And we were very well poised to do it at that point. That's fantastic. Thank you. It's encouraging to to think that you can shift you can have a mindset.

As difficult as it seems these days. Yes. I still believe. So. To do that work though, your organization had to have a lot of funding. I mean, the research, the community meetings and is that just a pool of funds that were available to the organization at large? And some went to your program, some went to others? Yeah. I mean. You weren't campaigning. It was. We were. But so what happens at that point? I believe the NAACP has developed a very strong C4 arm. But we were mostly operating through the C3. So any lobbying we did. What does that mean, C4 or.

C3? You can do lobbying on specific bills. C4, C3 is just an advocacy organization that can advocate on issues, but you can't say, you know, vote yes on this bill or no on this bill or, you know, you can talk to issues. This is a very kind of broad. There's a lot more like complicated details involved in it. So yeah, we did campaign with legislators often we had to be invited to speak on an issue and we couldn't say a bill number. But if you're invited to talk about the issue of death penalty, you can very easily go and talk about this is these are the facts.

And how do they know to invite you? We had contacts with them. This white community organized. We had like a regional director at the NAACP, whose job it was to be in touch with the legislators and kind of speak to them about our issues, not about bills, but about like, these are our priority issues. These are the campaigns we're working on and the funding came from, you know, mostly from philanthropic entities. So foundations, mostly private foundations. Every organization is set up differently. So often there is a pool of general funds that can be used.

But for me, a lot of the work that I've done has required like project specific funds. So getting donations from a large funder to do anti-death penalty work. Right. There's also like communications team was involved. So they had their own funding. So comes from a variety of places. But it is a big issue in getting this work done because it does require a lot of funding. Yes. When when you're reaching out for funding to some of these private organizations or foundations, are you looking for foundations that that seem to message in a way that makes you feel they'll be receptive?

Often folks in the advocacy field know which foundations are more likely to fund, or at the very least, are aligned in their approach to this work, and which are not sometimes people can be persuaded. It depends on, you know, the priorities that their boards set for them as well. It must take a lot of effort to design a questionnaire that is unbiased. I mean, you you have something you want to say, something that you want to pass, but still you have to be completely fair in the way you ask the questions. Isn't that hard? It's hard. And we didn't.

We know the issue, but we hired experts who were actually their job is to design these surveys and polls, and you convey to them the issues that you're working on and what you're trying to get at, and they help you design those questions and test them. Without them being biased. It's amazing. There's an industry for everything. There is one thing that I think would be great from our conversation I didn't think about was just opening eyes to people who see an opportunity here, because it sounds like we need thousands of thousands of people to be doing work similar to what you're doing or in support of what you're doing.

Yeah. Is it a field that needs a lot of help? It is. There's a lot of great people doing great work. I think what we need right now, we can never have enough people helping. So that's always a need. We need the funders and the foundation and the philanthropists to really step up and stay steadfast and even increase their support for this work. Given all the attacks and all the rollbacks that are happening in the in the field, we need some courage. There has that level of courage lowered a little bit, a little. I think it has a lot to do with various reasons depending on the different entities, but there's also so much happening that which fire do you put out?

Yes. Right. So I think a lot of organizations are doing some strategizing around okay. At the current moment, what are the priorities that we're either working on or funding. Right. Or standing back? And I think that argument that I made earlier about taking a principle stance like self-preservation, I guess, is important, although I believe certain things, hopefully we don't have to are worth dying for. But self-preservation for the sake of status or money or power is, is, to me, not the appropriate kind of stance to take at this moment. Right.

So we need courage. We need big foundations, big law firms to not fold the minute they hear some sort of fear inducing message coming at them. Or so we need that courage on that level. And then, of course, the advocacy field also needs to be courageous. The risks are greater now. The fear is definitely greater. People don't know if they can rely on due process anymore. People don't know if a judge can be arrested for doing her job, for example, or because of a social media post criticizing the government. They're going to get detained at the border.

So there's there's a fear, but I think we all have to kind of accept of a level of risk if we want to stay relevant in this field. Yes, I think so. And a level of risk as individuals, it's super important. It's amazing how much is swirling around, you know, each and every day something comes up that perhaps you could never have even conceived of. That is now another thing that in your head, in your heart, you have to contend with individually. And how do you do that? Do you do you find a way that's just sort of self-soothing? You convince yourself of this or that or or buy into it, or step away from it.

I mean, I think that that commitment to what is just now is so important and, and so much more potent than it's than it's ever been in my lifetime. And I've lived a long time and it's, you know, I think we all have to look inward each and every day. What can I do? What do I feel about what's going on? Does it feel okay to me? Is this the right thing? Is it okay with me that these law firms are doing what they're doing and giving up what they know is right, what they what they've learned, why they became lawyers? Is that okay? Do I get their point or don't I?

And how do I how do I go about making what I know or believe to be true known? How do I become part of a community that speaks up and understands that part of being a human means that you have to risk occasionally for the greater good? Yeah, and it's not easy. You know, just looking even at my own circle of friends who, you know, they're not in the advocacy space, but the level of general fear and anxiety that I see amongst like just people that are who are surrounding me is very different than at what it was. And so it does take that self-reflection.

And I imagine you're seeing people from all walks of life because you've immerse yourself in these very different communities, which is as it should be. And lovely. I want to talk a little bit about your organization, Avalon. What what is that about? Because you you've got a thing going. Yeah. So I 2017 or 18, I set up a small kind of boutique research and advocacy institute, sort of having worked in this space, in this field for a while, I kind of wanted to spread my wings and do things my way and have a level of independence. And was that designed so that you could make yourself available to lots of different people trying to fight?

Yeah, different types of injustices. So we provide strategic research and technical support to justice based organizations, often working on criminal justice, juvenile justice and racial justice issues. So we provide research, strategic planning. We've helped launch organizations. A lot of the research and advocacy work I was doing within big institutions prior to starting my own, institute. I'm still doing for other organizations. But the most important part of why I wanted to step out was not only to kind of spread my wings and do things the way I thought I wanted to do them.

But when I can, to bring in students who are either about to graduate or in graduate school or about to go to law school, I've had a variety of different types of students as research, assistants and interns to help with these projects. I thought back to what I would have wanted when I was younger, in order to have a foot in the door, in order to understand these issues in a different way from the perspective of the communities who are experiencing them in real time. In order for, like my work as a graduate student, to actually be feeding into a campaign that's happening on the ground now, that would have been so amazing.

I think this whole concept of building bridges, whether it's like for students, but also for my own community, I'm Iranian-American, I've spent a good chunk of my career trying to convince people in our community that that these issues also impact them. It's been difficult, right? I think people immigrate to move away from challenges and communities, settle in and want to blend in and keep their head down, and especially if you're coming from sort of an oppressive state, you kind of just want to blend in and live your life. Right. And it's taken a while, I think, for, for our community, especially the older generation, to realize just how much they have in common with other immigrant communities, with black people in this country and the ways that they are treated sometimes, you know, might happen to them at the airports where it happens to, you know, black people on the streets, you know, but the root of the problem is the same.

And we've had some tragic cases of, white supremacists stabbing and killing young Iranian man or a young Iranian man in Washington, DC who was unarmed, being killed by police. So there has been some relatively high profile cases within the community. And I've worked with those families. But it's been a struggle to get our own community to realize that they got to be in this fight, not just because it affects them, but that's important, but because it's the right thing to do. It is it was more challenging before, but as a newer generation kind of comes to the fold and starts being engaged and involved.

And folks who grew up here and kind of saw these issues in a way that I think the older generation that grew up in Iran didn't, there are a lot sense to it. Yeah. I suppose those that the older generation is perceived the United States in a different way than those people who grew up here and are faced with what's going on for their entire lives. Yeah. How old were you when you came to the United States? I was almost ten. And did you have an experience in Iran that was completely different than your experience in the United States? Let's say the first ten years that you were in the United States, was that vastly different than the first ten years of your life?

Of course, you don't remember all ten years of your first ten years. I suppose. Yeah, I remember a lot of it, but probably not the first few years. Completely different worlds. But for the fact that we moved to Southern California, I mean, now the community is much larger and we didn't move directly to LA, which is where the majority of the Iranian population was back then, still is. But there's a lot more folks in Orange County, which is where we moved. But we came there because my uncle was there. And, you know, immigration patterns, usually if you can go to where you have people.

Yes, there was there were some Iranians around us, but for the most part, everything was different. You know, I was a young girl and a religious minority growing up in Iran. For people who don't know the politics there, that's like a double whammy. It's like being like minority twice over. And even as a young girl, you could feel that. No, that. It was a lot of confusion and anger, though it wasn't. I think it has a lot to do with why I do this work. I couldn't understand. I mean, of course we kind of saw I was young, but we we knew there was a war, especially when the bombs started getting to to Tehran, which is where we lived.

So that was one piece of the turmoil. But the revolution and the and the kind of silencing of free speech, getting rid of equality, women's rights kind of being completely swept under the rug. And that shift happened while you were living there. Yeah. So all of a sudden I was living a very different life than my boy cousins. For example, I went to school with all girls. I actually was afraid to talk to boys when I moved to the US because I just except for my cousins, we didn't interact with like in public settings with other boys, you know? And then I had to wear a hijab and cover my, my hair and my body when I went outside of the house and I couldn't like it just didn't make sense to me why this shift was happening.

And I know the adults probably talk to us about it, but it just it was confusing to a young kid. And my aunt has the story of me coming home from school one day. She has three boys. Back then there was two of them. And were you like 8 or 9 or. I was probably about 7 or 8. And my boy cousins are a few years older than me, and they always got to do the cool things. I was the first girl, and I felt so left out. And then here we are. And now I have to even dress differently. Like they can wear whatever they want. I have to wear all the stuff because of I don't understand why I have.

So I came home from school one day and I ripped off my head scarf and I threw it on the ground and I said, I don't understand why I have to wear this, and your sons don't have to wear a turban. Which to this day I think is a very fair argument. And I don't know what she offered up for you is something that doesn't just to. But I was really, really angry and had a lot of angst about my experiences through that time in Iran. A lot of confusion, a lot of anger about differential treatment of of, boys and girls. And I carried that with me through my adolescence.

I had a lot of anger around like, inequality issues. And I think the reason I was so drawn to working in this space, I didn't think I would do it in the criminal justice setting. But that's what called out to me is because I just really expected things to be different here, and I knew what it felt like to be marginalized. I had this gut feeling, even though I didn't have, like, all the brain development, to make full sense of it when I was younger. But it was in your bones. I mean, it was. You'd been affected. Yeah. And so when, when I kind of learned about the history of how change was made here in America for the better civil rights movement, all the improvements we've had through the years and how it's possible.

Because there have been those. Yeah, yeah, an amazing amount of positive things that have occurred right. How advocating for change back in my country might have been, you know, land people in prison, but here you can do that. I think that's that's why I was so drawn to this field. And I think the gut reaction of just like, this is not fair. This is not just is always still there. Yeah. But now I have like, tools. And then when you were here and you shifted into sort of American view of things, was that, you know, another jolt because you, you'd been this sort of free young woman and then you weren't.

And now here you are in the United States, when there was not this separation between men and women. And yeah, I was it was hard. I was like I said, I was afraid to talk to boys, you know, I was I was becoming a teenager and, you know, you go through all these like socialization and liking boys and growing up, but it just always felt odd. It took a long time for that to normalize for me because it was so taboo. Yeah. What a lot of information for parents to have to help their children sort through things like that. I mean, it's it's kind of a more than unwieldy task.

It's not something that as parents, you can prepare yourself to deal with. I really have empathy for for people like your parents who were put in this position of having to do what so good for their children, the best thing for themselves, even, let's say, and then trying to explain it all. Yeah, it was hard. I don't envy the situation they were in, but I'm very grateful. I'm sure. And is your family mostly in the United States? Yeah, almost all of my family is now in the in the U.S.. I have a couple of aunts and uncles, some friends, but over the years everyone has left.

It's quite sad. It is. It's sad. And Los Angeles, I think, continues to be the largest community in this borough. Yeah, yeah. So in a way, it feels like home sometimes. But I still miss I still miss Iran. I can't imagine what that really feels like. And I guess none of us can unless we've been through similar circumstances. Well, again, I thank you for what you do, and thank you for knowing in your heart what is right for humanity and coming to it as an individual who knows she has to stand up for that. I want us all to be able to have that kind of courage.

And I think talking with you definitely helps us get there. Definitely. Oh, thank you and thank you for what you do as well. I think, like I said in the beginning, these types of conversations that are on the human level and kind of rip away all the other stuff is what, you know, it's what's needed now. I think so, and I think if we strive to look deep in ourselves, as you said, and find the thing that we know is the truth and operate from that, there's a huge amount of good feeling that comes from that, a huge amount to know that you're living the truth is just so valuable.

Yeah, I think so. So thank you for doing it. Of course. Thank you. Thank you for listening and watching. And it's been so interesting to speak today with our wonderful guest. And hopefully we can find out more information about her actually, is there a way that people can find out about what you're doing? Yeah. I’m on social media. They can also go to my website. www.avaloninstitute.com. Thank you, thank you. And follow us and listen to us and tell us what you think.