The Trauma-to-Prison Pipeline: Incarcerated Women in America with Dr. Niaz Kasravi

Transcript auto-generated from the episode audio; formatting has been cleaned up, but wording is verbatim.

I'm Cynthia Marks, and I head up the Holistic Psychoanalysis Foundation, established by my late husband, Doctor Bernard Bail. Welcome to and now Love. Doctor Kasravi is a national expert and advocate on criminal justice, social justice and racial justice. With more than 70 years of experience leading projects across the country. She is also the founder and director of the Avalon Institute for Applied Research, a research, advocacy and training institute. She is also the former director of the Criminal Justice Program for the NAACP. She holds a PhD in criminology, Law and Society from the University of California at Irvine.

Doctor Kasravi was born in Iran and migrated to the U.S. with her family in 1984. One of our goals here on the and Now Love podcast is to shed light on the far reaching discrimination of women in the hopes that we can all understand that women always deserve an equal footing with men, always. Today, we'll be discussing the experience of incarcerated women in the United States. Niaz, thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. Your insights are always so valuable, and I love that we're focusing in on this topic. Me too. I appreciate I appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation with you.

It's important. It is for sure. So give us some general insight as to what's happening here for women in the incarcerated space. Right. I think women make up one of the most overlooked population in our prison and jail systems. You know, America in general holds the, title for being the world's number one. And castle radar. We hold more people in our prisons and jails than any other nation. We. There is a statistic that we used to always tell people when we talked about this issue, and that is that we have 5% of the world's population here in the US, and roughly about 25% of its prisoners.

My gosh. So we hold that title. And so, you know, women are a part of that and they're quite invisible when it comes to this issue. There's not a lot of data and information as there are for men. It is true that while men, you know, way outnumber the women who are in the prison system and incarcerated in the US, women make up the fastest growing prison population and incarcerated population in this country to the tune of between 1970 and about 2014. The rate at which women were in prison increased 14 fold. And it's. Yeah. And in recent years it's been rising annually twice as the the rate for men.

And yet the data is quite sparse. It's not aggregated in a way that makes us better understand the situation that women and the challenges they face when they are within prisons and jails and, and contact with the criminal justice system, they make up roughly 10% of the incarcerated population in the U.S. there's about 100 and roughly 190,000 women, incarcerated women and girls incarcerated in the U.S. and they face very unique challenges. But all of our solutions to the problems for incarcerated populations and even post reentry, are very much centered around men.

Yes. So discrimination exists at every level. And facilities built to accommodate men? Yeah. For the most part, you know, varies state by state and institution by institution. But for the most part, like everything else in our society, it's very male centered. These are systems and facilities that are built by men and for men for the most part. And like I said, it is true that there's a large number of men who are incarcerated in the U.S. as compared to women. But the rate at which the population of women behind bars is growing is quite concerning, and we should all be paying much closer attention to that.

And do we know what accounts for that increase? A number of things. I think that we similar to why we have mass incarceration and over bloated prison population in the US. A lot of the reasons that women are behind bars is because of this tough on crime mentality that took root up and down through the ages, but definitely a major uptick starting in the 1980s where we societally we just shifted from thinking about, things like rehabilitation and really focused on tough on crime. And let's just throw the book at everybody so that they learned their lesson.

So that has led to an exploding prison population in the US, and women were a part of that. And additionally, isn't there? This concept, either consciously or unconsciously, that you sort of out of sight, out of mind, you know, they did this damage. Let's just put them away. Maybe they'll be some service toward rehabilitation. Maybe not. Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. But we don't have to deal with them, right? I think that is true for all of the incarcerated population in the US. We take often those of us who come from privileged spaces and have had opportunities that have allowed us to not go down that route often look at these cases and these individuals and think that, well, they shouldn't have made this decision.

They are reaping what they sow and that every action has a consequence. And so they deserve what they are getting. But often what we are doing is ignoring their really important context. That leads to people going into prison and jail and coming into contact with the criminal justice system and particularly for women. There is a thing, and it applies to everybody, but it is especially true for, women and girls behind bars. And it's called the trauma to prison pipeline. And so for women, the level of trauma that they have experienced, particularly as children, what is called adverse childhood experiences have has a lot to do with how and why they end up in prison to begin with.

More so than it does for men. Yes, yes, more so than it does for men. Although it's it. Men definitely also have a lot of trauma. I think this a lot of these things we're going to be talking about apply to the larger prison and jail population and people within the criminal justice. But there are certain things that are more true for women that disproportionately impact women and trauma particularly, I was reading some statistics that were saying something. Around 85, 86% of women who are incarcerated have experienced, some sort of domestic or gender based violence, sexual abuse, 70 some percent have experienced interpersonal abuse dynamics.

The study was talking about the levels of PTSD for women who are incarcerated and have gone through these situations. Can be higher than the PTSD experienced on average by, veterans coming home from war. And so I think when we take this stance that, oh, they made a choice and they got to deal with the consequences is such a narrow view of what is happening to a highly marginalized and disadvantaged population. Imagine if you are forever defined by the worst mistake you've made in your life. And this is what incarcerated women, incarcerated people, formerly incarcerated people have to live with for the rest of their lives.

You know, so it's one thing to design a system that cages people, doesn't provide them with the support and programing they need, and then they come out into the communities, and not a lot of access to programing there, either, for people who don't have the resources and the means. And then they are defined by this thing that they did because of the context that they grew up in. I'm not trying to say that there is no value in talking about personal responsibility, but I think that only makes sense when there's a level playing field, because all of us respond differently to trauma.

And so we are basically criminalizing the trauma response that a lot of women have, funneling them into the criminal justice system and to the prison and jail system. It's out of sight, out of mind for many people. But then you also have to think about 95% of people who go into prison, in jail, come back home. So they come back into our communities. So wouldn't it be so much more better for everybody if we tried to build a system that address the trauma, first of all, before it was penalized and criminalized? And also, once people are in the system, once women are in the prison and jail system, to get them the support that they need to overcome some of the challenges that have led them there.

Everybody would benefit from this. We got to get out of this vengeance mentality, which I see so often and so much more these days especially, and we got to kind of have these conversations on a human level. Yes. And this vengeance mentality though is is pervasive. And and we of course would say that no one is really the trauma they carry. No one is the worst mistake they made. And if we can get to the root of who we all are, we'll find, you know, sort of nothing but goodness and love. It's just heartbreaking to think that you now have this label on you, that you are this terrible thing that you, this thing that you did, that is because of the circumstances you knew, the circumstances you were given, the desperation you felt and trying to figure out a way to escape the love you didn't have.

Right, right. And it has collateral generational consequences, because something like 80 percentage of women who are incarcerated are mothers, are caregivers to children under the age of 18. So you're taking the primary caregiver out and think about the trauma for the child, for the children in that situation, and also for the mother who's being ripped away from her children. Right. And so you're perpetuating this generational trauma. Studies have also shown that women are disproportionately in class, rated for nonviolent offenses, for drug and property offenses.

So they're penalized a lot more for nonviolent types of offenses. I think the other thing that makes the experience of women different, incarcerated women different than that of incarcerated men is that about half of incarcerated women are actually held in local jails. And of that percentage, about 60% haven't even been convicted of a crime that they're accused of. They're merely there awaiting trial. So what's going on there? Why is that difference there? As we know, jail is often where you are held as you're awaiting a trial and some people are afforded the opportunity to pay bail and await their trial on the outside.

If you are considered a flight risk or a risk to the society or the community, you are denied bail. It's hard to believe that judges across the country think that women, especially as most of the women inside, are caregivers of one sort or another, are a flight risk or a danger to society. And so what it comes down to is the fact that they simply can't afford bail. They are experiencing a different level of poverty and a lack of access to resources to buy their way out to the community as they await trial for the crime that they're accused of.

And is it also that there's limited space? Maybe this doesn't apply outside of the jail system and in the prison system, is there a group of people who there's just no space for, and they are being held here until there is space? There could be potential cases like that. So you're saying the prison is overcrowded and so they're being held? There are cases like that for sure, but the vast majority are there because either they are considered a risk to society, but for the most part, they are there because they can't afford bail. And if women are jailed at a higher rate than men for petty crimes, let's say, is it because we hold women to a higher standard and that women fall off the pedestal and it's, you know, sort of deemed to be much worse than should a man fall off a pedestal.

Yeah, that's an interesting question. I believe there is an element of that truth to that for sure. When you look at girls, young girls who are in the juvenile justice system and come into contact with our criminal justice system, you see that they are punished more severely for the same infractions than boys are. So there is something to this expectation of girls and women needing to behave in a certain way. And when they don't, the consequences can sometimes be harsher. Yeah, there's an element of truth there, for sure. And that's happening to greater and lesser degrees around the world.

It is. It is unfortunately. And when I was driving here today, I was thinking about how important it is, the work that you do and the work that doc, the late Doctor Bail did in terms of centering the experiences of women and the trauma that women suffer, whether it's outside in the community or, you know, behind bars, incarcerated women and girls. You know, I think we got to make sure that we keep uplifting these experiences and these approaches to to deal with an issue that globally and even here in the United States, people are trying to sweep under the rug.

So so I appreciate the opportunity to really just sit down and talk through some of this with you, because it really often is an invisible problem. Yeah, I think so. I think many of us don't know about it, and we can see, you know, almost tangibly, this example as a result of sort of our misunderstanding, mistreatment of each other, of women, even of men. I mean, we still aren't in a place where men and women together know and understand the importance of love. Yeah. For sure. Every time we talk about this, you and I, Cynthia, I want to make sure I say that I'm not underestimating the impact that trauma or adverse childhood experiences can have on anybody, man or woman, boy or girl.

But in this context, it seems to play a greater role and kind of creating pathway for women into our prison and jail systems here in the US. Yes, I think so. And it seems that typically those in charge of making these decisions about these women are men. These men are clearly, you know, sort of misinformed or misunderstanding or not aware when it comes to love and respect. Yeah. And, you know, this points to the fact that there needs to be more women around the table making these types of decisions about our policy, about our institutions, about our systems, and particularly women with lived experiences have so much to add to that dialog and to that and those decisions, and they're often, often boxed out, even by organizations that advocate on behalf of incarcerated people.

You know, and it's gotten much better. But, you know, over the last few decades that I've been doing this work, even organizations that were talking about these issues and trying to make change, we're not really implementing this approach in practice, and we're not including the voices and the expertise of, you know, currently or formerly incarcerated people in a real way, in a way where they have actually influence on decision making. And so I think that is a path we have to deliberately kind of like march down on. So are you saying that the concept, the idea is talked about, but implementation is much more difficult.

Who better to tell you what the needs are for women inside a prison or a jail in order for them to then come back out into the community and become productive members of society. Who better to tell you what was actually harmful and what was actually helpful? Now, when you listen to people who are in prison and jails. I was listening to somebody this morning on a podcast talking about how she had experienced extreme trauma and physical and sexual abuse and violence in her childhood, and she had been in and out of jail and ended up getting a long, lengthy sentence, a prison sentence.

And she said that was she experi sensed in that time where she was incarcerated was so much worse than the trauma that led her to that place. So we cannot cage the most vulnerable people, the most traumatized people in our communities. We cannot cage them and treat them like animals, and then expect them to come back out into the community and do better and be better and learn their lesson. No. Right. Oh, that's just so heartbreaking. So what is being done? There are certainly people and programs fighting the good fight and programs that are being implement that have been especially over the last couple of decades, maybe starting from the mid 2000, late 2000.

People started to pay more attention to the need to rehabilitate folks to get services and programs within. We do have agencies like Homeboy and. We do have agencies like Homeboy Industries. All of us are non there's a lot, a lot of organizations doing great work, both inside of prisons and outside of prisons, helping people reenter into the community once they, have, you know, done their time. What does that look like inside a prison? Inside a prison is is almost institution by institution and state by state. You know, so for a while there, for example, San Quentin in California was one of the institutions that had a whole host of programing, for, you know, folks who are incarcerated.

And were those services privately funded, a. Combination a lot of philanthropic dollars also were poured into building programs for people inside of prison. We're sort of seeing the tide turn on that a little bit, unfortunately, especially since this new administration took, power. But we have been inching closer and closer to kind of turning the tide on are the reforms we've been able to implement to address some of these challenges. And people are returning in some way to a more of this tough on crime. Let's lock them up and throw away the key.

And why? Why have sympathy and why have compassion? We've we've all heard a lot of that dialog in public discourse and being implemented really through policies. And so we're kind of in a really important turning point and moment in this field where there's so much attack on these programs that have been, you know, helping. And we needed to build on them. But now there's all of this attack and a lack of funding and the administration saying you can't work on gender equity issues, you can't work on diversity. Compassion is a weakness. These programs are not effective.

Cutting a lot of that budget and putting fear into organizations and foundations that have traditionally supported and funded funded this work. So it is a moment that I think those of us who care and who can, instead of shrinking away and bowing down to the demands of what I believe to be an authoritarian administration, we got to dig our heels in deeper. And this is the moment of truth. Because what we do now is going to define, you know, the situation for the next generation, at least. Yeah. At least. So we've made a lot of progress, but there is definitely an attack on this work, on this concept of gender equity in general.

And I think we just have to pay attention. We have to support the entities who are really being very courageous to, in this moment, continue this fight. Yeah. So that's where things stand today. And it's it's it's quite scary. It's very scary. And you know, we drifting to a dark place pretty quickly. I mean, the fact that communication has changed so rapidly and you can get your information like that. And we know what's going on around the world and we're so much more exposed typically to the crises, the danger, we're more aware you can't help but be more aware.

And to me, that is that alone is a message you've just been made more aware. What are you going to do? Yeah. And I think it's interesting because I think the awareness sometimes comes with an impulse to turn a blind eye because we are so overwhelmed. Oh for sure. Right. With these problems and images of like Warren destruction and abuse, whether it's here at home, with the immigration raids or the wars we're witnessing abroad and, you know, international law being violated. And, you know, these are like, pop up, like instant images back to back on our social media feed.

And at the same time, each of us has our own issues and our own stressors in our lives that we have to deal with. And sometimes it can be easy to say, this is not my problem, right? So let me just turn a blind eye. I think number one that makes you not the best global or, you know, this country citizen. And number two, the more you ignore other people's challenges and problems and refuse to bear witness and take action when you can, the more likely that once you have challenges, others will also ignore what you're going through and not be a supportive.

So I think what goes around comes around in a real way, because the more we care and the more we act, we build up precedent and institutions and processes to support one another. And the less you do that, the less that resource in those processes and that help will be available to you once you need it. So true. And I would suggest when you look outside at the world and you just want to close the door because it is overwhelming. I get that. I so get that there is something you can do and you just start here. Just start here. And the more you can come from your giving, loving, empathetic place, the more that rubs off on the people around you.

And we, you know, step by step. We can't improve our institutions until we can figure out what's going on inside of us. And, you know, I am not dismissing the fact that self-care is important. That making sure you feel whole and energized and you're not beaten down by the negative negativity that surrounds us is important. It's important to take the time to yourself and sometimes tune out for a week. You know, maybe not go on social media, you know, maybe not. Look at your phone the first thing you wake up in the morning, you know. So take the time you need to be whole and then come back to the fight.

So I'm not advocating for just piling all this stuff on top of yourself to the point where you just feel completely overwhelmed and incapacitated because it can feel that way, right? But there's always something we can do. There's always even beginning to change the narrative around some of this stuff. So like with incarcerated women and formerly incarcerated women and formerly incarcerated people in general, how do you work on the way that you perceive them just internally, the narrative inside your own head? Are you just looking at them as someone who did something that broke the law and spend this amount of time in prison, or are you looking at them as a whole human as a whole human being with a host of experiences, good and bad, before they ended up in prison?

And once they come out, the challenges that they face. And often if you've worked enough with formerly incarcerated people, those who have some semblance of support and programing available actually end up being the biggest advocates for change and the biggest voices for love and compassion and really using their own experience and misfortunes to help other people and help communities in general. Right. So I think broadening our view so that we personally, individually don't look at people based on one thing out of the beautiful and crazy and complicated context of their whole lives.

You know, I think we have to check ourselves on that, even if that's all you can do, that's still something. That is, that is. And but it's so easy always to operate from the stereotype to notice that you're doing that basically in all arenas is a pretty terrific thing, and that these incarcerated people who have now been able to come back into the general public and are willing to share their stories, willing to help others, you know, rejoin their families, you know, they had an opportunity somewhere along the line to feel a human connection where where they felt respected and they felt love and they didn't feel like they were the worst thing that ever happened to them.

What a what a great thing to have happen. You know, so many people who can now live full lives and and help others understand from their own experience what that's like. This is what happened to me. And let's not let this happen to anybody else. And I feel like there's a lot more of that going on where people who are, let's say, formerly incarcerated, are able to speak up in a public forum to help address concerns. And, you know, and they're being heard. They're being heard. And I'm hoping that there's action that's a result of that for sure. And I think it's easy to look at what may be happening on a national level and the federal government, the things coming out of this administration and the attacks on the good work around reforming the system and supporting everybody who is incarcerated and formerly incarcerated, including women.

Right. There's definitely an attack and a rollback there. But if you look at jurisdictions and states across the country, that great work is still happening. And I think sometimes, especially for those of us who've looked at systemic problems and tried to solve systemic issues, this moment calls for us to also pay a lot more attention to what might be happening in a smaller scale across the country, in states that you might not even expect. Right? I was talking to somebody who works at the Innocence Project, and we were talking about the challenges on the federal level.

And he was saying, despite that, they've seen a lot of positive change to protect innocent people from becoming ensnared in the criminal justice system on the state and local level in places you might not even expect, like Alabama and Florida and Texas and and so sometimes it's important to have those moments of reality check where you tune in to the good, good stuff that's happening in the middle of this crazy chaotic, toxic environment that we seem to occupy. Well, many of the organizations, organizations that we've had the opportunity to speak with, you know, get kind of a bad rap just initially you're misusing the funds, you're not doing enough good work.

And, you know, it's it's hard to do the good work. It's hard and funding is difficult. And I think it's so important to shed a light on the good things that people choose to do to support communities, all sorts of communities. And I think that alone, you know, brings a lot of attention to these different issues and gives us, as individuals sort of more of a footing to to stand on, to say, okay, I can support this too. Sometimes I feel like people who have critiques of organizations and foundations and, and areas of work as if, oh, you know, you're misusing funds or you're not being effective.

Okay. If that's a valid critique, why are we throwing away the baby with the bathwater, as they say? Right. Why aren't we looking at if you believe this, why not try to take a closer look and help these organizations who have this higher goal and higher purpose that is positive for our communities. Look at them more closely and support them in becoming better, becoming more efficient. You know, how can we help you use your funding better to have a greater impact rather than, oh, we think you're misusing funds. And which may be true, I think it's it's oversimplified and over applied.

So you see, one anecdotal case and you apply it to an entire field that's been helping millions of people. Uhhuh. So I think we have to be careful to not shoot ourselves in the foot. So to say you know, and think about what is the outcome we want. Something might make you mad about an issue. I am mad that this organization was, you know, found to have, like, not use their funds properly or overpaid their CEO or whatever. Okay, that doesn't mean that you try to get rid of a whole industry and a whole like advocacy space because one organization messed up.

And so I think there's some work to do before we get there. This system, though, our prison system is for women, is kind of, at large, messed up. Yes. You have some of the most traumatized amongst us going into a system that is not at all well in tuned with the challenges and the needs that women have, that does not provide them with the programing and the support that women need on the inside. And once they come back out to the community and you're just exacerbating the trauma. So then when they come back outside to the community still carrying the same trauma or more trauma, they're going to potentially go back to those familiar things that they did that they thought might unconsciously probably relieve that trauma.

Right? For some, for sure, and for others who might be lucky enough to have a semblance of support systems, family members, friends, organizations and entities that are helping them with reentry back into the communities, with reunification with their children. Because oftentimes what happens to women when they go into prison and jail is their children either have to stay with a trusted family member or if there is, you know, nobody like that around. They go into foster care. Yeah, the child welfare system. And it's very difficult to. Right, right.

The emotional trauma of that, you know, we haven't even gotten to what happens to pregnant women when they go into prison and jail, or they're in and out, right? Or they're postpartum and they're separated from their babies, or they give birth in prison or jail, and most often they have a couple of days, and then the baby's ripped away. And put into a foster care system. Or with a family that can take care of them. But not everybody has that luxury that your grandma, your mom, your auntie. Can you please take care of my baby? But even if there were, I mean, I can't imagine what it's like to to have your baby ripped away from your arms.

Not in a million years. And then you're put in a concrete. Block, right? How do you recover? So you mentioned that there are many more women sort of stuck in jails. They can't afford the bail. I mean, ultimately something happens to them. What what happens to them? I mean, ultimately they are the charges either a drop they're found innocent or guilty, and then they are, if they're sentences lengthier than a year, if they're found guilty of a felony. Although it doesn't always play by that rule. They're sent to a prison that they serve out whether they get they're given probation.

There is some sort of outcome. But this lengthy wait of, like, pretrial wait that they have to stay in jail for because simply because they couldn't afford money to get out on bail. That does something to you psychologically. Can you imagine also having gone through that and you didn't even commit a crime? And basically in the jail system that's supposed to be sort of a moment in time, I suppose. So there probably is basically zero for services. Jails are not really designed, particularly for long term stays and often where there are services even in prison.

But they're definitely more sparse in jails. But the services and the programing that is available isn't available to everybody off the bat. You know, you're in there. The main purpose of our system, unfortunately, is punishment. A lot of people only become eligible to access resources where they do exist. When they get closer to their release. So you're in there for however long you're in there and you're dealing with these oppressive conditions where, your needs aren't being met, health needs, mental health needs, physical health needs. You're not getting good nutrition.

You're not getting the support that you need until the very end, you know, and then you come out into a community. And unless you have access to resources, you face all the challenges of reentry, reunification with family, getting a job, a. Life is harder than it was before. Yeah. And so we kind of are in a conundrum. And when you take into account women, when they're inside, they're also more susceptible to sexual abuse by the staff at these facilities. You know, so it's like trauma after trauma after trauma. And that is a real thing that's happening.

It's like a lifelong journey through severe trauma of sexual abuse, emotional abuse, sometimes incest. And then your trauma response is criminalized. You go into a system where you're traumatized. So many, you know, times over, and then you come back out into a community and you're expected to flourish without any support. And then all of this applies disproportionately to underprivileged and minoritized communities, right? So black women have of the worst native woman, Latino woman. And so it's quite dire when you look at the situation of women who are incarcerated in the US.

So is that. Largely due to a system run by a white male? Yeah, there's definitely elements of white supremacy, male supremacy, patriarchy that play into this, intersected with elements of tough on crime and a refusal for the larger community and country to acknowledge the trauma that that women have experienced and do experienced, and how to best address that trauma. How do we how do we even prevent it, which is not even considered as much as it should be. Right. Which is why we're here. Yep. And so like I said, this is why I so admire the work of Doctor Bail because he really understood that this is such an invisible and ignored population.

Whether you're incarcerated, formerly incarcerated or not, the trauma that women experience is so unique, so ignored, and that we would all benefit so much if we were to prioritize that type of healing for women across the board. Yes, it will make the lives of men and women better. After all, men are carried by a woman. Right. Nurtured. Nurtured by women. So treat that woman. So well. Right. Yeah. That's not to say we should ignore the trauma of men like I said. No. But I think we have ignored the trauma of women a lot more than we have ignored the trauma that men go.

Yes. The plight of women in detention now and immigration and the treatment, is it similar to the situation in our prison systems in terms of the trauma that's inflicted in that scenario? I think in some ways we can say that it's worse. I think they come into immigration detention facilities at ease, potentially in different ways. Right. Not to say they haven't experienced trauma, but it's it might be a very difficult, different sort of trauma. You know, as we know, Donald Trump ran on a platform of detaining and deporting more illegal immigrants, quote unquote, than any other president.

I think he had some goal to deport nearly a million people a year. And so since he took took office, we now have the largest number of people in immigration detention. These numbers vary from 61,000 to 75,000 people as of late to 2025. And, you know, roughly half of that population is women. And now what we know about immigrant women is that they are often some of the hardest working and lowest paid population in the US. They hold up some of our most needed industries, like the care industry. Right. Caring for children, caring for elderly is cleaning our homes.

This is a population that is being directed into immigration facilities. And despite the fact that the administration said they're going to go after the worst of the worst, we're going to go after people who have violent criminal records that just has not panned out. That's not most people. Immigration detention, including women, don't have violent criminal histories. Those that do have criminal records is often civil violation, civil immigration violations, missing an appointment, doing something wrong in the process of going to citizenship. The majority I'm talking about, we're talking about general, numbers here.

And immigrant women have reported that they are afraid to leave their homes. They're afraid to take their kids to school. They're afraid to report domestic violence to the authorities. They're basically living in fear. And when they get swept up and they, go into these facilities, which 90% of people in immigration detention are in private facilities, and we can talk about that a little bit. They often experience some of the same issues of family separation. The conditions within these facilities from all that we can tell is horrendous, inedible food, lack of mental health.

And, you know, medical health services for these women. There is reports of mold and vermin and worms in their food. Really terrible sleeping conditions often, if they are on the path to deportation, women and men are moved around from institution to institution, facility to facility until they are deported, sometimes to a third country where they have no ties. Some of these women and men, we're actually in the process of becoming legally ized. So they are waiting for their attorney, or they have an appointment with the immigration judge to go and make their case.

And these cases are being rushed through because of the directives of the administration, which doesn't give them enough time to prepare a defense or prepare a case. And so it's just horrendous what's happening to the immigrant population here in the U.S. but then you also have the addition of being a woman and experiencing that trauma, of being separated from your family and being separated from your children. And then, you know, losing if you are able to overcome this and get out of immigration detention, you often have lost your job. Maybe you've lost your family.

If you've had kids, if you didn't have somebody that they could remain with, you might have loss in the foster care system. So there's a whole host of trauma that is, impacting immigrant women and in our immigration detention facilities today. So it's not easy to get accurate information about what is occurring in the facilities. It's very difficult. It's difficult for multiple reasons. One of the reasons being that most of these facilities are run by private prison companies. Two and in particular, Geo group and course civic. Basically their incentive, even though they they pay lip service to we do things the right way.

We treat inhumane conditions and with dignity by all accounts that we have heard. None of that is true because by definition, a business, a business model, a private corporation, its sole reason that reason for existing and ability to exist is the bottom line, a profit margin. So we've taken something that is supposed to be a public policy and public safety issue. That should be something that we have oversight over. Our elected officials have oversight over, and we've relegated that to a private industry whose only motive is to make money. And it is worth billions of.

Dollars and no public oversight. Very, very little, because it's like government trying to provide oversight for any private business. There are severe limitations. I mean, elected officials have been arrested for trying to enter these facilities, to just look at the conditions that people are being held in and private prisons in general, have a really dark history in the US, and those of us who've been advocating around these issues have been advocating for the end of the use of private prisons. But this immigration detention ran by private facilities.

Private corporations is probably the worst. We've seen it in terms of scope. And what makes it even more sinister is that these are the same companies who are lobbying our elected officials and, contributing funds to their political campaigns and lobbying for harsher immigration laws. Because what does that mean? That means more money, more people in immigration detention, more money in their pockets. And so it's a dangerous path we're going down. And it behooves us to make a quick U-turn on this issue. So how does that happen? I think you have to take the financial incentive.

I mean, there's many, many ways, right? What sort of impact can a person have? There are a whole host of resources that identify companies that invest in private prisons. So there are lists that look at which banks actually invest in private prisons, which grocery stores, which labels that we use for our day to day products. And I realize it might be impossible to cut all of that out, but all of us have a little wiggle room. We can refuse to buy their products. We could refuse to bank with institutions that invest in private prisons. There are some.

It takes a little work. That's the whole story that I hope people take away from this is that we have the power. You know, we don't have to change everything about what we do, but there are things you can do and it chips away and disrupts the status quo. So looking at how your life is connected to private prisons will be illuminating. How many of the products you use every day support institutions that invest and benefit from locking people up for profit, right? That to me is so unethical and so immoral to lock human beings in a cage and make money off of it.

Can't even conceive of it. And it's happening. It's happening. And it's unless we put a stop to it, it's going to happen more and more and then make those institutions no. Why you are no longer a patron or buying their products, right? We also need to change our campaign finance system. So why should these multibillion dollar corporations be able to give as much money to these candidates as they want, right? There should be limits on that. Our elected officials then also need to know how we feel about these issues. So keeping that line of communication open with your local rep representatives.

At that sort of movement makes a difference. Yeah it does. I think many of us think that, no, I'm not going to get anywhere with my elected official. Well, no, it adds up. It adds up. And if you're only voting every two or every four years and then closing your ears and eyes, that's a very bare minimum and unlikely to shift things that you want to see shifted in a timely manner. I think that part of being human means you've got to step up and do a little work. Yeah, 100%. Good work. Good work. And I think if each of us can get to that place of understanding, this is part of my job here on earth is to do something from a place of empathy, do something to make a change where I know that bad things are happening.

100%. And you and I have talked about this before, with all the negativity and the chaos around us and the feeling of hopelessness. And this problem is so big, what can I do? Every small step, every small act of empathy makes you feel more empowered, makes you feel more confident. It does. Yeah. And you can start really small and you will probably do something bigger the next day or the next week. If one were to take away this privatized system actually would it be that or would it be create needing another privatized system that is working from a better place, a more humane place.

What happens when we take away the power from these companies that are treating these people so inhumanely? I don't believe that we can privatize our way out of this problem. Whether it's crime, whether it's immigration, there are issues that must be relegated to the public sphere, particularly issues of public safety, because that is where we have the most leverage to implement or strengthen existing mechanisms for oversight and accountability and transparency. And I think private business by design is shielded from that. So I don't believe that privatizing is the solution to our problems.

Are public, social, societal problems by any means. I think the more we try it to make it better, the worse we are going to make it, because our attention should be on. How do we do better as a society, as a community in our public policy space? Because there is always that bottom line. Private corporations and businesses will always exist primarily for that bottom line. That's a big task and probably a topic for another day. How to create that system from where we are now? Yeah, but we've got to sort of make inroads. Yeah. Don't buy stock in these private corporations.

I don't care how much money it's going to make you. That's unethical. That is money that's built on the lives and suffering of human beings. It is true that we should really be cognizant of and learn a lot more about what we're doing. Yeah. With our funds, little or large. Yeah. Every step of the way at the grocery store, at the gas pump. So let's talk a little bit about asylum and what's happening there for women. Grim. Again. And like I said, it's easy to get to a place of hopelessness. But I do believe that the first step to being hopeful and empowered is to become aware.

So with the situation of asylum, one of the things that previous administrations here in the US have been doing is opening up more pathways and more opportunities for women who are escaping gender based violence in their home countries to come to the US and seek asylum. And there there have been directives and policies to allow women to more easily access safety, who are in grave danger in their home country. The Trump administration has basically reversed that tide and said that women can no longer seek asylum solely based on the reality of gender based violence and domestic violence or gang violence in their home countries, and that gender and sex are basically no longer a protected identity.

So this administration has pretty much closed the door to some of the most marginalized and vulnerable women on the planet. And many of those women are probably coming from countries where that sort of treatment that they're now fighting against is the norm. So to expect them to now have to exist in their own country and to try to take care of this issue, there is an impossibility. Yeah, we're sort of either sending them back to a place where their lives are in danger, or sometimes we're sending them back to third party countries where they have zero ties and zero support.

So it's quite grim. And I believe we look at the asylum system, we look at the immigration system, we look at what's happening. And it just seems so cruel because there was a time where even in the immigration system, this concept in principle of treating people humanely and with dignity was important. We've thrown all that out the window. I believe that that is the cruelty is the point. It's not that it was necessarily so difficult to treat people with integrity and humanely, but I believe that this administration is trying to dissuade people from coming to the US, and they've succeeded.

It's clear. I mean, nobody wants to be faced with that sort of cruelty. And we've put a big magnifying glass on it. And you know, I'll say that I don't think it's a problem just for this administration. We've built up to this. This did not happen overnight. Family separations are not a problem for just Republicans. These cruel detention facilities didn't just pop up overnight. Private prisons didn't just happen in 2025. And so it's it's a false kind of dichotomy to think that, oh, this is a Republican issue or this is a Democrat issue. We created this.

All of us, as a society. So these private facilities have have existed. It's just they're being brought to light now because so many people are entering into them. Yeah. And they are being used at an exponentially greater rate now with the immigration detention. Definitely did not see as many people who are outside of immigration detention in the U.S. being held in private prisons, although they were there were private prisons before and but this is their boom. So is most of the information that we're gathering coming from people who had been in these facilities and are brave enough to speak up about it.

Right, because they're they're private corporations. They have no obligation to open their doors to the public, to elected officials. But there are people who've been able to go inside certain facilities journalists, advocates and experts. There are people who are coming out on reporting. What we have is definitely doesn't present us the whole picture, but it presents us with a very grim picture of what's happening. And I think if the curtain were ever to be pulled back, we would be horrified and shocked even more than we are now. Well, I think that's important.

It's again so easy to close your eyes to what's going on in the world that is overwhelming. It's also so easy to sort of accept the fact that somebody doesn't want you to see something. And so you don't think that you have an opportunity to investigate that, or what you're being told by one agency is the truth, when really something completely different is happening. That's a lot to contend with. It's a lot. I think we all have brains that are overloaded. Even when you are exposed to information these days, you have to figure out what's true. So you see something that you, excites you or enrages you.

But you you have to kind of see, okay, is anyone else reporting this? Is this a one off like you got a fact check. You got to see how many places and who and in what fashion. And so you just get sucked into this like doom scrolling and just going down the rabbit hole, and it becomes overwhelming for our system. And I think that's another component to doing what you can for humanity is thinking, okay, I believe this to be true. What I've just seen, read, heard. I believe this to be true. But let me think about this for a minute. Let me look at some other sources.

I mean, to me, that's ethical. Use your intelligence to help you settle with what you're feeling. Yeah. There is no other option. We live in an increasing age of AI created content that's not factual, right? We live in an age that's increasingly polarized and biased towards one way of thinking versus another. And so it takes a lot for us to, if we're actually concerned with the truth and I am concerned with the truth, it takes some effort in a way that hadn't been used in the past. So it's good to have, I think, some guidelines for yourself around how much you're going to get sucked into this and which rabbit hole you're going to get down into.

But we have to, if we want to know the truth. Yeah. And it's an ever changing world, that world of information. You know, I also think we increasingly live in a world that is so impersonal. People are separated by screens. You and I have in the past talked about this dynamic and social media, for example, where people get into these conversations and fights and battles where they're insulting each other over political views, you name it, right? I don't know, the screen is called something gives you courage to just say things you might not to a person face to face.

And the other day I went to a celebration, an event that was put on for, the Persian New Year, for Nowruz. And I knew there were people there who have vehemently disagreed with me politically and have come at me online forums, and I knew that there was a lot of folks who were experiencing that. But everyone was civil with each other. No one tried to like, paint somebody as the devil incarnate because they believed in this thing or that thing, and everyone commemorated the coming of spring and our new year. And I felt really good to be. At first I was weary, and then I felt really good to be in that environment where, okay, you don't agree with me, but you're not trying to paint me as the devil you know?

And I think the more we can get into spaces where we have human to human contact and connection, the more we can overcome some of the toxicity of the current dynamic that exists primarily online. The more you can talk to people, face to face, people who've had experiences that you don't understand, sitting down and talking to people who have been in prison or jail, who have had some sort of trauma, who have experienced things that you don't understand, who come from a war torn country, who come from a country that's starving and people are dying because of sanctions.

You know, talk to people and listen to their lived experiences. And that's how we overcome some of this. And even with this issue we're talking about today with incarcerated women, see them recognize their pain, bear witness. I think we just live in a moment where we have to bear witness to people's challenges and people's oppressions, and also the good things that happen to people. This doesn't happen in a vacuum. And so I feel like a big key to solving some of our issues is this human connection with one another is the only way that compassion can can grow and thrive.

I think so, and if you're coming from a healthy place that is going to be given to the person you're speaking with, the person you're sharing space with, 100%. I don't know. And I hope we make the right decision as humanity. When I try to foresee what's to come, are we just going to become these humanoids who are like, you know, behind our screens all the time? Or are we going to say no, that has its place but human to human connection and spaces where that can thrive also has its place. I hope it's. That. I hope so too. The other is leading us to becoming a completely different species.

Yeah, well, I think the hope here is that we help people pay attention to what's going on in the world around us. Even though it's overwhelming, it's difficult. You see things you don't like, you see things that you don't feel good about, and you think there's no place to begin there is. There truly is. Even if you start small, it's going to give you this good feeling inside and once you attach yourself to that good feeling, I truly believe that you're going to want to move forward in the world. Giving more of that and giving that good feeling to someone else, supporting someone else, looking them in the eye, seeing who they truly are as an individual rather than what you've stereotyped the group that they're in to be, makes a huge difference.

A huge difference. Yeah, it's certainly does. So thank you for speaking up. And thank you for supporting all these different groups that you support. And thank you for knowing so much about them and being willing to share, because it's so easy for us to keep it in the dark. Not that we're necessarily trying to save ourselves. There's just so much to see. There's a lot to see. And like I said, set boundaries for yourself, but don't cut yourself off from the rest of the world. Don't cut yourself off from the discomfort, because you only get to a better place by facing discomfort in your life in any scenario, right?

That small thing that you do can just be inside of you. It doesn't have to be some big gesture. It can be, and maybe it'll build up to that. But it could just be like, let me learn more about this issue that's given me so much conflicting emotions. Let me talk to somebody who's closer to the problem, and that could be the start of it. Or even if that's all you do, that's more than most people. It's really quite a bit to do, you know, and I do think that there is something to be said about feeling when something seems unethical or morally inaccurate.

I think many of us feel that, and I think or be aware of that. And and it's a place to sort of maneuver from. Thank you. Niaz. Yeah. It's my pleasure. Any time you are our social advocate here. I am happy to fill that role. And, you know, you you were one of the reasons you and the producer here, at the studio or at or the reason that I started my own podcast. So we've sort of come full circle on all of this. Yes. Which is fabulous. And we'd like you to share with us how we find you. Yeah. Just you can go to Reset critical on any platforms where you listen to or watch podcasts.

And you can also find us on social media. And we actually have a great interview with you coming up in a few weeks. That's where we talk about your work and the work of the great, late Doctor Bail. So hopefully your audience will tune into that. I thought it was a really insightful conversation, and I and I loved being able to talk to you about how you felt about the work that you do in the work that Doctor Bail does. And it's so connected to the issue we talked about today. It is. Thank you so much. Please follow us, share our podcast, and pass this episode along to someone who might need it.

This is and now love. Listen to your dreams and live from your heart. Thank you.