The Critical First Five Years of Development: Parenting Tips from Dr. Cori Cross

Transcript auto-generated from the episode audio; formatting has been cleaned up, but wording is verbatim.

Hi, I'm Cynthia Marks. I head up the Holistic Psychoanalysis Foundation established by my late husband, Dr. Bernard Bail. Welcome to the and Now Love podcast. Dr. Cori Cross is with us today. She is a pediatrician and a child advocate based in Los Angeles. Lucky for us, we're based in Los Angeles. She is a sadhu out and well-respected speaker in her field. Dr. Cross speaks nationally to physicians, parents and educators. She makes presentation designed to help parents and their children find a balance in this digital world. Hard job. Dr. Cross is also a lead author on the upcoming American Academy of Pediatrics Policy Statement on Social Media and Children.

And that topic Social media and children, is huge, and we're not going to focus on that so much today, but it gives us so many reasons to invite Cori back a lot. Well, I'm so happy to be here. Thank you. Thank you for coming back again. So this is our second time with Cori, and we're just grateful that you're here. And I'm excited to ask you questions. I wanted to talk about kind of the first five years of life and what we can do to help those little creatures that we bring into the world be the best little creatures they can, how we can let their little brains develop into the perfect large brains.

And we want to hear all that you have to say about this topic. Well, I think it's going to be fun. I love little people. They're so cute and cuddly and we really are shaping them in those first few few years. And it's hard sometimes for parents to strike that balance between wanting to provide everything for them and then also letting them develop the independence and autonomy they need to have that self-confidence that makes them into really good people and really. Hard to know when they kind of transition from being all about you and needing you to needing some independence.

I think it's hard as adults to figure out when that happens, even though this is someone you, you know, sort of know like the back of your hand, it's it's a task. Yeah. I mean, we're going to focus on the first five years. But really, I think as I've gone through parenting, what I've learned is you have to understand as a parent that your role changes. And sometimes we're sort of late to the game. We don't realize that, wait, you know, you don't need me as a goalie anymore. Like I'm over here now. You know? And so I think it's hard for parents sometimes to realize that.

But you have to have that changing role if you want to be able to see your children change as well. And I think we've all seen when parents don't do that, that you've got the kid who's in college like calling and, you know, having you solve every problem for them. That's that's just not the ideal. It might make the parent feel good that they're still needed. But that's not the point. Like, that means you haven't accomplish the goals. You know, they're just not always our babies. No, they're not. So here's my first kind of long winded question.

Absolutely. So it seems that the first five years, including time in utero, are the most important in terms of development. Well, we just said that Dr. Bail believed that the period spent in our mother's wombs truly plants the seeds that shape us in this world. Some good, some not so good. He always said, Love your baby deeply and honestly. Think about how your actions affect this precious being you are about to bring into the world. Pay attention to your baby. Not just physically, of course, but emotionally. And of course, now we are not talking about the work that we must do as individuals, as grown ups to make ourselves whole and healthy here, because that's another big topic.

But just on face value, it seems like we can do quite a bit to plant a lot of good seeds in these little beings without going through these years of making ourselves whole again. There's just some simple things I think we can tackle. So say, for example, before birth, talk to your baby, alleviate your own stress as much as you can. Keep peace, share your happiness, love those around you. Eat well. I mean those are some good examples. There are some other examples that are pretty far flung. Like you have to play this kind of music and it's got to be played 12 times a day.

And maybe that's great. Maybe that works. But I think there are a lot of convoluted things that are out there. What what can we just simply do? So for me, I was a new pediatrician. The first time I got pregnant. And so that's not the least stressful. You could be doing. It was it was an experience because I had already been counseling moms who had, you know, babies and who were pregnant. And then all of a sudden I'm going through it myself. And I realized how much stress we put on pregnant mothers like they're going through a lot with their body changes.

You can't sleep so well, like your ankles are swelling, like there's so much already going on and. It's all new. And it's all new, and then we add to it a lot of emotional pressure that if they don't do things right, things will be wrong. I honestly, when I was pregnant, it was a lot. I mean, I enjoyed being pregnant, but it was a lot. And I remember just sitting there one day thinking, people have been doing this since literally the dawn of time. It cannot be this difficult. Like it shouldn't be that there's this much to do. And I think the best thing that I can do right now is just try not to stress about things, because I'm pretty sure if I stress about if I'm doing this right or that right, I'm probably creating more cortisol and more stress for this baby, which I know cortisol is not great.

So I'm just going to like not worry about all of this and I'm just going to do the basic thing. So for me, when I was pregnant, like I absolutely exercised because I needed that for my own stress relief. But I also thought it was probably good for the baby to get that heart rate up because there is a lot of thought about what the baby physically with the baby encounters in utero, sort of like the body's prepping for what it thinks the world is going to be like. So I wanted to have a baby thought let's exercise like not a couch potato. So like, I was I we're going to exercise.

I ate very healthy. I didn't do any of those bad things like smoke or drink or drugs. Like those are the basics. But then after that, I just I didn't worry too much. Like, yeah, sometimes I talk to the baby, my belly, sometimes I didn't, but I didn't worry. And I think that really, whatever it is that makes I think a mother comfortable is what they should do. And that is what I sort of brought through too. Even when you feed your child, right. And so here in this country, we have a lot of rules about how you feed your baby right away. Right. Like so, you know, first it's breastmilk and formula, but then when you start doing solids, you'll hear, make sure you give them the greens before the reds and the oranges, because if they don't have the greens, they're not like they get the sweet stuff first, then this or whatever or you have to start with rice cereal.

And I started reading about what they do in other countries and I realized that other countries don't necessarily do this. Some people start with avocado, so like lots of people start with lots of things and most of them turn out with kids that are just fine. So when I would have moms who would come in, they'd say, Well, you know, I'm giving just greens and I haven't given, you know, anything red or orange because I don't want them to have a sweet tooth. I was like, Is that what you want to do? If that's what you want to do and that's making you feel great, awesome.

If that is stressing you out and you want to give like smooshed banana, go for it because it really is about if you have a happy mom, then the baby is better off. And that's what I really believe. You have a happy non stressed out mom who can give you the love that they're feeling and they're not overwhelmed with all of the other just logistics that really aren't that important. You're going to be better off. So go ahead and trade sweet potatoes before peas like it doesn't actually matter. Start with an avocado. We might get some comments on this one, but.

I would I ended up doing I just did what. Was easy for me. I was Italian. I was like, How many things could you actually be allergic to inside a meatball? Probably not. So much. Yep, that meatball. And that's what you're going to have. It was fine. I just make life easy for yourself. But some of those rules are so oppressive, and you talk amongst your friends and, you know, Betsy's like, Did you hear? She's given the reds before the greens. No wonder the kid's a little. Lot of competitive parenting, right? You don't realize it. But like, a lot of times when you're going to those groups, like, you're going for camaraderie, you're going to learn, But there's a little bit of competition going on.

And I think the best thing a parent can do or a mom can do is just not buy into it, right? Be like, That's great for you. I'm doing this. Yeah. And trust your own gut instinct. Yeah, but the things that you said, well, yeah, I'm not going to drink alcohol. I'm not going to smoke. I mean, there's sort of like a base. Rate that's actually based in science, right? Alcohol is not good for a fetus smoking. Not good for a fetus. Not good for us anyway. Exercising great for everybody. You know, those are basic things that we can all get behind. But other things, I think if they make you feel good and you feel because some people feel more in control and that feeling in control is good for them.

Yeah, then great. Some people just don't want the extra stress. That's fine too. I think keeping your stress level down and being able to focus on the fact that this is supposed to be fun. This is supposed to be a good time. This is supposed to fill you with love, that if you're getting sidetracked from that, you're you're doing it wrong. Yeah, it should be exciting and fulfilling. I can only imagine that as a pregnant person thinking about birthing this child. And it's your first time and it's overwhelming and you don't know what it feels like until you feel it.

There's so many different things you can hear about the right way to do this. yeah. I mean, you have to learn to settle with yourself. And we even stress moms out with they think that they should come in with a birth plan. Right. And every time a mother tells me they have a birth plan, I'm like, well, that's lovely, however, but just be prepared that sometimes the baby doesn't know the birth plan. Right. And isn't on board with that birth plan. And you may need to pivot. And if you do. Everything's not going to go wrong. Like if you end up having to have an epidural and you didn't want to, if you end up having to have a C-section, you wanted to do natural birth.

Getting out a healthy baby is the most important thing. And whether or not that child hold Mozart while you were giving birth or not is not the most important thing. The most important thing is focusing on everybody being healthy. And I think sometimes when we give parents so many choices, they start to feel like they're supposed to make everything perfect. Yes. And if you just think about the fact that there are so many amazing individuals in this world who didn't have perfect lives but are still are awesome loving people, it usually like it works out.

Just keep your North Star and keep your love in the right place and it works out. That's perfect. Yeah, I can remember when when I was pregnant and I was one of those that I'm, you know, I'm doing this without an epidural. I'm going to be just fine. I'm so strong. And there I was suffering and I finally, like, raised my hand. Nurse How do you know when you're ready for an epidural? Because it was so against what I wanted to do? And she goes, Well, you're asking that It was probably a few hours ago. Yeah. So I just think we need to keep keep the stress level down.

I also think that I have a real issue with sleep training. Now let's hear about it. So for me and you know, as a pediatrician, we do know that SIDS, so sudden infant death syndrome is something that we worry about. And keeping a baby in the room with the parents in those first six months is really the best and safest place for them to be, but not in their actual bed. And so for me, what I did was we had like a bassinet, like a pack and play that we put right next to the bed. And that made it really easy because my daughter had her own safe sleep space, but I could also get to her easily, nurse her when she needed to without leaving.

And for me we just kept the lights down and I figured if she didn't feel wet or gross, the better was not to change the diapers, just she'd go back to bed. And so that made it very, very easy. But I also think I could kind of smell her. She could kind of smell me. It helps them to calm down and sleep really well because they hear you breathing. Because if you figure a baby who's not in the room with you, if you think about nature, a infant that separated from its mom should cry right? It's like, Hey, you dropped me. In the forest somewhere. I swear I am right.

Come get me. It's totally fine. Right? So you feel like they should have some instinct that if they. Wake up and they don't hear or smell you, they should make noise. So I think that actually having the baby near you help. Well, what is it that is sort of the popular mode right now? So I think lots of people do that. Lots of people co-sleep, which is dangerous because I think we get extremely tired, overtired, as anybody who's ever given birth knows. Like I sometimes think when I was in that sort of first few weeks, two months, I'm like. Wow, I am one night away from completely losing my mind.

And so you can imagine falling into such a deep sleep that you could roll over on to the child. Right. And you often have two people in bed. Yes. And so that's not a safe place. But so lots of people, unfortunately, do still co-sleep or they'll put them in a bedroom on their own with a monitor. And that's fine if that's what you need to do. I just think that sometimes you do have a baby who cries more. Basically what we did was we did this with all three of our kids. We moved her from right next to the bed to them, like a little bit across the room as she got older and I didn't need to nurse her in the middle of the night and then eventually into her own room.

And when we actually brought her into her own room, instead of putting her right into the crib, which was a much bigger space than the little pack and play bassinet thing that she had gotten used to. We put the pack and play in the room, so she still had the same bed and the same like everything was the same for her. But now she was in her own room. What they sort of tell you to do is to let the baby cry, and then you go in intermittently and then like you slowly to make it longer and longer until they wake up and they know you're not coming. And so they don't cry.

My husband had read all about this and he's like, This is what we're supposed to do. And we tried it maybe for 20 minutes to a half hour. And then I was like, Can't take it. I was like, This isn't going to happen. And he he was like, No, it says, I was like, I understand that. I said. But I said, This is our first situation where she is going to figure out, can she trust us or not? Does she believe that if she has a problem, we will come or we won't? I don't care what the book says. I want her to know if she needs me. I'm there and she needs to trust that I'm always coming.

I was like, So I'm going. I was like, If this takes us years to do because I'm wrong, I don't care. We didn't move her to her own room probably until she was about six months. She stayed right next to me because we were nursing so much. And then like there's another probably another three months where she was across the room. And then I moved her to her own room, probably around like nine months. So she was old enough to actually understand a lot. At that point, I think I went and I was like, Look, I love you. I'm going to come every time you cry, but you have to know you're okay.

And so, like, sometimes I would go in and I'm like, Well, I'm not going to pick you up. This is not cuddle time, but I'm going to sit here with you like. So I would just sit in the room and like, I'm going to sit here because if you cry, I'm coming, but you don't need me. You can do this yourself. And yet maybe it took a little bit longer, but eventually I think, you know, I'm not feeding her when I go in. I'm not cuddling. She's not getting out of the crib. So watching me sit in the chair. You know, it was not all that exciting. Eventually she stopped and it.

Didn't take that long. But I felt like we developed a bond that I wanted to keep forever. And that's what I often would say to my husband is like, What am I establishing here? And what we're establishing now is the relationship that I want to have later. So I have to think about what these things sort of translate to down the line. And that's super important for parents to think about. I think some of us are just too exhausted. We so many day to day, it's. Like and all the books tell you to do it differently. So maybe do it that way. But this worked for me.

And I have to say, I mean, Cory has three awesome children, and whatever she's done, we want to follow. But. Well, thank you. We were talking about some of the simple ways to pay attention to your child in utero, like taking care of yourself and all of those things are good for this baby. Now that your baby is is with us, you've birthed this little creature. What is that? What does attention mean? How do you how do you pay attention? I seems like such a simple question, but how do you really pay attention to your kids? Are you with them? Are you playing a game or are you looking in their eyes?

Are you playing music that they you think they might like or would sue them? What is that? I think the most important thing for parents is to be present. And that doesn't mean you're physically there. It means you're actually emotionally there. So you're not bouncing them and looking at your phone. Exactly. I mean, there are times when we have to do that, but I think there has to be a conscious effort to be present. So there can be times when, you know, you're feeding and you're watching a TV show and the baby's half asleep. Like, that's fine.

Like, we all need that time to zone out because again, it is a constant as a mom. So you do need that zone out time that makes you a better mom if you have that time to regroup. So that might be looking on your phone or whatever while you're doing other stuff. But it also means that throughout the day you need to find time to like look at the baby in the eyes, smile. They're looking at your face. They're trying to get those reactions. They're learning all about communication by looking at your face. It's why their eyes can focus this direct distance when they're born.

That's what they can see, right? That's what they're meant to look at and try to understand. When I make this face, she makes that face. And when you make a particular face, there is a feeling like if you were angry or sad, that feeling that you have of anger or sadness would show up. Absolutely. Even when you're not face to face, when you're taking the baby out on walks, you're speaking, you're always talking. Right. And so that's really important. The amount of words that a baby hears really helps them to develop a vocabulary. And it just helps to to calm them down.

So you want to be speaking to your baby, even though they're obviously not speaking that right. And so it doesn't mean that you're making either gibberish. You just speaking like you can talk to them and then also just spending time being silly. So it's like very quickly you can hide things or play peekaboo or whatever it is. They're supposed to do a lot of tummy time, so, you know, put them on their bellies. They don't like that. So get down there on your belly with them. Be like, Yeah, that's what we're. Doing. We're both doing it. We're both doing it.

Want to roll this ball around like this, Mom? Roll it back and forth, Watch it. Just being silly, you know? Like, that's really what it's about in the beginning is, you know, maybe paying attention when you're feeding them. It's just paying attention to them and talking. And there's a lot of what we call techno ference where like, you think you're with your child and you're putting the time in, but you're doing this, you're checking emails and yeah, we're working parents like we have to do that, but there has to be some time when we're not doing that.

And when you are doing that, even with your baby who can't speak, do you say to the baby, okay, Mommy needs 5 minutes to take care of this business phone call. I'll be right back with you. 5 minutes. Yeah. I don't know at what age they can actually understand that. But I will say as they get older, that's very important, Right? As they get older, it's super important that if you need to check out, you say that you do it and then you come back. That's important both because it's modeling the behavior that you hope your child is going to have when they finally have a device, Right.

You don't want them just looking down every time they're supposed to be talking to you. It's also important. There have been studies that have shown I love this study. It was done at a fast food restaurant where they watched caregivers and children. And so they would all get a meal. They'd sit down and they'd watch how long it would take for the caregiver to take out a device. And then they recorded what type of behaviors they noticed from the children. Once the caregiver was distracted on the device. And the caregiver could even be a mom. Right?

Like the person never interacted. They didn't know if was a mom, a baby or whatever. Right? So they just did the caregiver. What they did notice, though, is that once the caregiver takes out the device, the children would start to act up. Right. Sort of in a way to try to get more and more attention or whatever. And they would just keep being. The longer they were ignored, the higher they would sort of go to try to get the attention. However, if the caregiver took a phone call, like somebody was like, wait a second, I just have to take this call.

The children actually didn't act as badly as if they were sitting there doing something on their device and it seems like the kids understand, somebody is calling. You have to take that now and then you're going to come back to me. And that's okay. Whereas if you're just distracted doing something instead of paying attention to me, it feels different. And so I think parents need to realize that the kids are looking for those moments. So if you're going to take your kid out to eat, try to be there and be present. And if you can't and you have to answer like six emails, say, okay, I'm going to eat with you.

And then while you're finishing that, I have to finish these emails and I just have to do it. I'm sorry. Right? Like acknowledge the fact that you're not paying attention to them. And I think that that makes them feel better because we all want that respect. Sure. And it certainly lets them know you haven't forgotten about them and that your their feelings are important to you. Right. Or, you know, something like, yep, I know sometimes it stinks that we have to work and do this at the same time. But isn't it better that we get to do this, you know, together and we don't have to work all the time, so I just have to split this time.

It's not what I would like. I would much rather be with you, but this is what I have to do. Yeah, right. Like, just letting them know that they're important to you goes a really long way. It's just communication. Communication all over the place. Absolutely. So this level of attention for some of us just gets harder because we've been given additional tasks as time goes by. Perhaps now there's two babies, perhaps now we're working from home and we're taking care of one baby or two babies. We may have other children to attend to. How do we find ourselves out to be able to manage the day to day to pay heed to our own needs and our own worries and give the attention to our children that they require?

Is there an amount of time or a certain type of attention that could be prescribed? Like is can I am I allowed to be distracted for X amount of time before I start to upset my child? I think it's sort of like buckets. If you're doing a great job filling that bucket, then you've got a lot of reserve that on the days where you need to step away and you need to do your own thing. You fill them so far up that they may not like that you're not able to be there, but they bounce back quickly. But if you're not filling the bucket, then the reserve isn't there.

And so I think that it's a little bit of that. I also think that as parents and particularly moms like we always talk about work life balance. But for me and maybe again, it's because I was working a lot as a pediatrician when I had my children. You're not balanced on any given day, right? On any given day, you might feel like you're tipping one way or the other. But for me, I always thought if I can balance the week, if I can balance over like a little bit of a longer period of time, then I don't have to worry that today I worked this shift and I didn't see that like try to balance because I think when we try to balance every day, sometimes we feel extremely over overwhelmed and there's going to be days where you have more work to do and days where you have more free time.

So I think that that's important. I don't know that there is a threshold. I also don't know that it's about the quantity of time I think that it's about a lot of times not even just the quality, but just the connection. When you're there and I say it's not about the quality because it doesn't matter if you're going out and doing something Uber fun, it's that you're super present. And so when we had our second daughter, I was nervous that my first daughter was going to feel sort of neglected and she'd been my world for forever. Was she when your second daughter was born?

19 months. What we started doing was she and I would I'd take her on my like CVS runs when I had to go and buy stuff. And we'd go in and we'd get a little well, a little like six packs of, like Oreo cookies. We're going to get some comments on that. Yeah. And, you know, she loved those. And we don't have a lot of cookies at home. So it was always like a treat. And we would go and park on the top on the roof where there wasn't a lot of people that we'd see and we'd know and we'd put on music and I'd let her sit in the front seat of the car and we'd play music and put our feet up and we would eat our Oreo cookies.

What a treat. And it was so much fun. And then I would always I would say, okay, I was like, This is our check in time. I was like, because, you know, this is my first time doing this. And I always say that like, I this is my first time. And I say that even now raising like teenagers, this is my first time around. So if I'm doing something really wrong, please let me know. And so I would teased and I say, Well, this is my first time doing. This is like, how do you think it's going? Like, do you think it's all working well with the new baby? Like, do you think mommy, daddy should be doing something different?

You know? Do you have anything gestures? And, you know, she'd sometimes think and. She'd like talk. But it also got her talking about how she felt. I'm like, Well, how are you feeling? Like, do you think this is working out? She would chit chat a little bit and but it also made her feel like she was part of the adult crowd, like part of the team trying to figure out how to get the baby to fit in and wasn't just about how she was feeling, but she felt part of us. The baby's almost as important to her as to her parents. Yes. And so I think that that really worked well.

It was years later. My two daughters were in middle school, and for Mother's Day, they got me a giant package of Oreos. And they're like, this is because you always take us out for Oreos to chit chat. It's like I do. I do. You know, I think it's. Like and that left a lasting impression. So I guess my point is, is that it doesn't have to be expensive. It doesn't have to be, you know, big chunks of time, like all I had was five extra minutes go and a severe sleep. That's all I could spare. But look at that memory that they brought back and shared with you.

And and it's about repeating it, right? It's about making it. Because I think that's the thing. Even with little kids, we don't think about how much they need to talk or they need to have that one on one. It needs to be something that's consistent so that they can depend on it happening again, so that if they have something to say, they know that that time is going to come and that they have that space to have those discussions. And I think that that's important when they're little. I think that's super important when they're teenagers too. If you consistently make that space, they might not need to talk all the time, but when they do, they'll know how to find you.

And I am sure you still make that time for these three kids a try. But I mean, everybody who has older children. No, it gets more and more difficult, but you have to carve that time out. Well, and they become more independent. So, yes. I think the other thing and I know you and I had talked about this a little bit, so I want to make sure we get it in is there are some really great things you can do when you introduce a second child into that relationship that I think really helps for the first child to feel less jealousy and to feel just better about the whole thing.

And I think that, yeah, you can understand if you're in a relationship with somebody and then they bring somebody else home like that's a little jarring. Yeah, right. And that can be a little nerve wracking. And as much as parents, we understand it, I'm not sure the siblings always do. So one of the things I told my daughter is we had watched the Grinch a lot before her. Her sister was born, and the end of the Grinch. The heart grows like three sizes. I told her I was like, That's a lot like Mommy's heart right now. It was like, Right now you have my whole heart.

I said, And I know you think like, okay, here's this baby coming along now you have to share my heart. I said, But that's not actually how it happens is like, just like my belly is getting bigger. I was like, my heart's getting bigger too, and there's going to be more than enough for you and her. And so we talked a lot about that before she was born, that nothing was being taken from her. In fact, I was just getting bigger. Which was physically happening anyway. So very believable. Right. If this is growing, certainly that could do. Yeah, why not?

Right. But then somebody had to give me this wonderful advice that while you're talking and feeding the infant, it doesn't actually matter what you're talking about. So if the older child is in earshot, have conversations with the baby about how awesome the other kid is. And so I would be feeding my second daughter and I know my other one was listening and I'd be like, What? You really love Peyton. I think she's awesome too. Just wait till you grow up and you can play with her and she's going to be the best big sister. my gosh. She's going to show you how she can do all these great things.

You have no idea how well she plays. I just know she loves you to pieces already. I know you love her, too. That's so obvious to everybody. But she certainly loves. You to do like she's going to because she really does. Love me. I was like, absolutely. Do you see how she smiles at you? No questions. Absolutely. Trying to, like, plant those seeds so that they're not having those jealousy needs is really, really important. And then always, like whenever we would talk about the baby, it was always like, did we tell you now we're having a baby? What do we tell you?

Peyton's going become a big sister and just making it focus on her. And you don't realize how just the way you present it makes it about them and includes them. That's awesome. And I think, too, that a lot of us, you know, we're talking around our children, around our baby, not with our children or with our babies. And it's almost as if you think, what's the point? Why? Why? They're not. But they are. They are. Yeah, they suck it in. They do. I mean, I can't take credit. That was a mother of four who told me that. But I will say her children are all in their sixties now and still friends.

So I'm taking the advice. Yeah, that worked well. And yours are all still friends. Yeah. So just a little bit about this a little bit more because, you know, working from home has become just super commonplace. I think it's created this new dynamic. How do we now do these two things at once? I mean, some people are still able to take their children to child care, but a lot of us aren't. How can that balance? I mean, that's one of those moments where you're writing an email and you're shaking a rattle and you know somebody else needs to be fed.

Yeah. Gosh, that's a lot of new stuff. It is. I will say that when I just had one child and she was very small, the sling was really, really helpful because I felt like, you know, the little ones, they sleep a lot and you can keep them close, but you still had your hands to sort of do everything. As the baby gets older, whether you have one or two, you're really trying to multitask. And that is like there's some great things about working from home because you can have those minutes together and you're not commuting. And right that you wouldn't have otherwise had.

But at the same time, sometimes you end up with no real time because it's all multitasking time. Whereas if you were going to work and coming back, maybe there would have been more of a distinction, right? So I do I do think that that that's hard. There's a new level of complexity to working at home. And you do do hear about people who it's no longer an eight hour day. No So the time that you would come home from work and devote to your family is now partially eaten up, sometimes by work. It depends. Everybody's in a very different situation. To the extent that parents can provide some boundaries to their employers and say, well, from whatever to whatever time I'm with my family, or really, I'm just not going to answer those emails right now.

And we'll just see. Like I'm just going to have to you know, I've said that I wasn't working right now, so I'm not working right now. And sometimes people, just your coworkers, get used to the fact that that might not be what they would love, but they deal with it, particularly if when you are present, you're super present and giving 110%. People often cut me some slack when you're not present. So I think that's important. I think that though that is also the same with children, right? So when you are present with your children, if you're giving 110%, then they cut me some slack when you're not present.

I think it goes back to, again, the whole communication thing where you say, okay, I have to work from this time to this time and I'm not going to be able to really interact if there's an emergency. Yes, but this is this time. But then I promise we're going to go to the park for an hour and it's going to be your time, Right. Or we're going to go out to lunch or whatever it is that you're going to do. And then they can see that when it's their time, it really is their time. So then when it's not their time, they can understand that. And I think that that's yeah.

And they'll feel safe knowing that that time is coming again, as you said earlier. Right. And then sometimes I'll be like, well, I have to check these intermittently. So, you know, you're going to have to give me like a couple of minutes every whatever to check it, but then I'm right back to you. So I just think it's a lot about communication is really important. And then also that they don't have to be around you all the time. Like you said, childcare is is expensive. So for a lot of people they can't afford it. But if you're not doing it because you think it's better for them to be around you all the time, it may be better for them to go out with a babysitter for 2 hours, go to the park and then come back because you get dedicated work time.

They get some time with somebody else and spending time with somebody who's not their mom is also okay or going hang out grandma for that's fine. Like, that's great. They should have that time away. I think that's wonderful. And then also sometimes we lean on each other. I'm huge about trying to do favors for other people so that they can do favors for me. So I'll take all three of these kids because I'm going to the park anyway. And then when I need something, I'm going to ask you to take my kid. And this way, you know, because kids need they don't just need their parents.

They need to interact with other kids. They need to interact with other adults. So to the extent that you can use that, so that you can carve out your time to do your stuff, I think that's that's important. And the same thing with if you have a two parent household, you can really lean on each other to really allow yourselves to have some time where you're not having work interference or device interference and can just focus on the kid. Yeah, I think that's important for us to know that there are other people who can love our children and pay attention to them.

We can get our job done or have our alone time. And I mean, there are instances where kids aren't even living with their own parents, but that doesn't mean they are necessarily denied attention or love. Yeah, and also kids are fine by themselves a little bit. So with my own children, we didn't I'm not huge on TV or devices that just wasn't part of like their childhood very much. So I wouldn't be I didn't really put them in front of a television and say, okay, I'm going to go do my work. There were certain times and they would watch some TV. Of course, but a lot of times I would give them something to do and I would have something to do and like, Well, we're both going to work like you're stacking those cups.

I'm doing this and they can't do it forever. You know, it might be like ten, 15 minutes, right? But they're part of the. Team, right? I'm like, You got work time. I got work time. Like we're going to meet in, like. 15 minutes and, like, chit chat and, like, you'd be in the same room, but, like. Giving them time to do their own thing and, like, they fell down. Okay. Nope. I'm working. You're working like, that's what we're doing right now. And I will say that my kids are very good at being sort of creative, self-reliant, like. And I didn't care if they're really stuck in the cups or the eventually.

Like what's great about kids is you can give them almost anything. Like, this is why I love blocks as opposed to an iPad with a block app. You give iPads to a kid with like a block app and you think they're building and they can build most amazing things on an iPad and that's great, fine. But they're only interacting with that device the way adult anticipated that they were going to where a 0 to 5. A lot of it is about exploring your world and creativity and so you give kids real blocks. Well they may build they may also depend their food at a store.

They may pretend that they're ice skates and go ice skating across your kitchen floor. They do a lot of other things. And when they build and things fall over, they're learning about physics, They're learning about how to balance things. They're deciding what worked, what didn't. They're readjusting. Do rebuild, do I not? Right. They're dealing with disappointment, right? There's so much more. So I think those very basic toys that we gave kids is so much better than putting them in front of, you know, even an educational TV show. Give just let them do what what kids do and they're so much better off.

And it's I mean, obviously that's what we started with eons ago was, you know, a stick or 12 sticks or. Yes. And people figured out how to be creative or throw things across the room or ice skate like you say. Yeah, there's nothing kids can't do with a giant box. Right? And there's something to be said for three dimensions. Yeah. You know, but like, I mean, big boxes are. Like, they were my kid's favorite thing. What do we get? This box? So there are kids who get this attention. And then there are kids who don't, unfortunately. What becomes of these two different sorts as they grow up?

I think it's very hard for kids who don't get the proper attention when they're little. I think that it's great when that attention comes from a parent. It doesn't always, like you said. Sometimes it comes from a grandparent, sometimes it comes from like just a lovely caregiver that's been with them for their whole childhood. So it doesn't have to come from a parent. But children who are successful, who are well-adjusted, they generally have a consistent adult who's in their life, who they feel they can lean on, who they feel they are the center of the world for.

Like they just have that person in their life who they know is not going to let them down. And it's that belief that there's somebody else there for you that I think just makes you both know how to love, give love, receive love, but also make you into a really resilient person. I think that it helps you to get through trying times. There's been lots of studies that kids who are more resilient have at least one trusted figure in their life. And then there's this study a long time ago about Harlow's monkeys. And so it's quite sad. But if you look it up, it's it's very potent.

There are monkeys and they're kept in cages and they're little baby monkeys. And for one group of monkeys, they have all of the basics you need to live, right? They're given food. They're in everything that they need. But there's no mother figure. The other monkeys also don't have a mother, but they're given a wire. Mom that's covered with, like, some soft stuff and. And the food as well. And the monkeys that had the wired mom to at least go and cuddle with and have some sort of interaction with did so much better than the monkeys who had nothing but like all of their needs were met physically, but nothing emotionally.

Those monkeys basically lost their minds. right. It's really quite sad, but it just shows you that it's not just about getting those basic needs met. There is sort of an intimacy, a physical contact that is absolutely necessary for development. So it's just you need to be physically close cuddling there with your child, whether they're, you know, two months old or honestly, whether they're 16. Right. We know that even elderly people do better when they have a pet. Right. Somebody to to cuddle. Right. We know that, Nicki, babies do better when they put skin to skin with a parent or, you know, a person.

They can feel the heartbeat where they can feel the warmth. And I think anybody who's ever had like a really good hug and you're like, Wow, I needed that. And you just sort of like feel the other person. You feel their warmth, you feel their safety. You almost like can smell them and you're like, I am going to be okay. And like, I think we need to remember as our kids get older that we tend to sometimes not be as affectionate. They need that, you know, they're not getting that from another place, so they not that way. Yeah, and that's such a potent feeling and it's really hard to put words to it.

And That's I mean, that's one of the great things about humanity or knowing that you're not the only person around in that we can really give and take just in that physical way, because these monkeys who we're lucky enough to have just this wire for, I mean, we're not talking about someone communicate with you or sharing emotions. It's just that physical touch. Yeah. Is so, so special, so important. Recently I had my my 11 year old. He sat on my lap and I gave him a hug and I was like, wow, He's like, You're getting big, buddy. I was like, I don't know what we're going to do because your mom is quite small.

So I don't know. We're going to do when you get too much bigger, this is going to be a little uncomfortable. You're gonna be too heavy for me. And he goes, I know what we'll do. Like, I want you guys. You'll sit on my lap. That's right. That's like there. You get around, you know, he'll hold you. Yeah, but I just think that what I loved about him saying that is like it was his fault that this isn't going to end right. Like, you're going to be my person. Yeah. You know, and I think that that's important because. Fabulous. Yeah. Do some people who don't get this level of attention then ultimately go and find some amount of attention in the wrong people that they mistake some sort of bad attention for just attention.

I'm sure that can happen. I mean, I'm sure there are lots of instances where people don't get the attention from home and then they end up seeking it out from someone else who isn't exactly their best source of attention, for sure. And I think sometimes you end up spending a lot of time outside the house and end up in like maybe a group that you shouldn't be with because these people also don't have other people to go home to. So, you know, it can it can work that way. I mean, that sometimes you end up finding somebody else who doesn't have somebody to go home with and it's their.

Great support. Each other through it. So I'm not sure it's always that way. But I think it really does help too, to have somebody. And I think that is also it's great when you have a parent or grandparent who loves you all the time. But I think that we can also think about children in our lives who might need a little bit more. And is it your niece or your goddaughter or whatever that you can reach out to on like a little bit more of a consistent basis and be there for them? So I think that everybody can probably think about being there for somebody.

Yeah, and we're talking about children, but that's the same for elderly people. A lot of times they're very lonely just thinking about the fact that, like sometimes those phone calls are like 5 minutes for you, but the only person they're talking to. Yeah. And how many times do you hear someone say, my gosh, Well, my cousin became she was like my sister, where people see that they can fill a need or a void for someone or, you know, my mom was great, but she was working all the time. And I can't believe that our next door neighbor, you know, came over and played cards with me.

And I just I got all that attention, you know, And as a community, we just kind of have to keep our eyes open. Exactly. And and you'll know when somebody needs you. And sometimes we're just so busy that we don't recognize it or. We don't want to. Yeah. But and it's, it's you think it's going to be the biggest gesture that you have to make. And sometimes it's very small gestures, but it's about consistency. So this level of communication that we maybe ought to have with our children, I think a lot of us don't take it far enough because we think we'll show ourselves as being too vulnerable.

We're not in charge. We have frailties, we make mistakes. How can we get past that? I mean, because I think there's so much benefit to being able to say to your kid, okay Mike, I made a mistake. I went away. I thought about it for a few minutes. I'm back. You know, let let's talk about how what I did made you feel. Why is that so hard for us? No, it's true. I think that as parents, we think we're supposed to one, be perfect and to always know everything. And if we say that we don't, then we lose our credibility. And I think if you think about even as an adult, the people you respect as leaders or the people you're willing to follow, they're not always right.

They're not perfect. Right. They're not. I mean, a lot of times the best leaders are the best bosses are the ones who, you know, listen to what you're saying and then make adjustments based the fact of what you're saying. And they're confident enough in their role as leader or as boss that changing their mind doesn't actually worry them. Right. Right. They don't think that their power comes from being omnipotent or omniscient or either of those right. Like, for all they are right, they don't believe that that's where their power comes from. Their power comes from just being a good leader.

And I think that that's the same as a parent. Don't have to do everything right all the time. I don't have to know everything at the moment, the right way to do it. But I'm a good leader as a parent because I'm willing to listen to you and say, All right, maybe that's not what I should be doing. Or sometimes I say, Well, I heard what you had to say, and we're still doing it this way, right? Yeah, right. I mean, you're kind of a team, but yet you're in charge, right? Like, I heard your point. I'm still going to do it this way, But I did appreciate your input.

You know, thank you for writing it. But I always like the is the Calvin and Hobbes. Where he's always like, Dad, you're not doing well in the polls. we're thinking of replacing you. Always waiting for them to reflect to me, right? Yeah. It's funny. I've been in that spot a lot. He's doing well in the polls. But I also think, like I do talk to my kids about a lot. I think I also show my vulnerability a decent amount. And for me, I feel like if I want my kids to feel like they can be vulnerable and show their vulnerability to me, then I feel like that has to be something that I show to them.

And I think that by showing them that sometimes I'm sad or I'm vulnerable or I'm scared, I think that I can show them that you can be strong. But that doesn't mean that, like you can't always you don't always have worries or you can't do it all on your own and you have to lean on someone. So I think that it's really important to show your kids because otherwise you get these kids who think that, A, they have to be perfect and then B, they have to do it all on their own. Can't ask for right? And they can't ask for help. And if they show you they're vulnerable, then they're weak.

And that's just that doesn't make for a healthy adult at all. Right. That's exactly what you don't want, Right. So for me, I think I can show them, Look, I was scared. It did it anyway. And you know what? It didn't turn out exactly the way I hoped, but it turned out pretty decent. And now let's adjust. And it's going to be even better. Right? You learn something from that? Yeah. Showing your kids that I think is so important. I often tell my daughter, my oldest daughter and I did do this. That change is really hard for me, right? I really love consistency.

I'm not a fan of change. I'm super talkative and very outgoing, but meeting people makes me nervous, particularly meeting like a large group of people. And so I always tell I was like, Yeah, I sat outside the hospital in my car the first day of residency and basically cried that I was scared to go in and have to meet all these new residents. And I didn't know a single person in the hospital and just a million things that could go wrong. And I just didn't want to have to go in and introduce myself that many times and like, how is I ever going to do this?

And I just like sat there and sat there and sat there. And eventually I called my husband, who said something along the lines of like, you're. Basically an adult and this is something adults have to do. So get out of the car. You kind of. Have no. Choice but to go again. And by the end of the first day, I was like, Yeah, I felt like a kid. I was scared or whatever. But I always tell her, like, you know, she was so nervous about high school was like, Trust me, I was an adult feeling the same way. Like, you don't feel this way just because you're a kid.

Like, this is something. We all feel or a lot of us feel, and you're just going to have to do it. And I'm telling you, it's going to be okay, but you're not going to know it until you finish your first thing. Yeah, but this is what a good thing to share with your kids, too, that you're not the only person that's doing this. And I get I can feel how awful that is for you, but let me share. Yeah. And there you're just again, showing a moment that you were vulnerable and you know how you overcame it and how you grew from that. Yeah, it's just this great communication you have with your kids.

No, and it does. And it helps them not to feel like my son sometimes gets really upset when he can't do well. Or when I tell him that you know, something he did in school wasn't wasn't great. He'll write something and they'll show it to me like, Is that really your best work? I'm pretty sure you could have written that nicer or whatever, you know, like, and then he'll do it again or whatever, and he'll go to bed a or cranky and I'll go in there. I'll tell him like, listen, you're. Not a great speller. Like, that's just, that's just the way it is.

Like I'm not a great speller either. And you know what? We're going to have to work a little harder at it, and that's okay. But, you know, I don't love you because. You're a good. Speller. Like, I don't care. That's all your life, right? I'm like, I don't care if you're a good speller or not. That's not how come I love you? You just have to spell things right because that's what you have to do in school. So if you don't know how to spell it, you're going to have to look it up. But it does not change the way I actually feel about you. Like I love you for you like so don't think you have to be perfect or do everything right for me to love you, but I am going to hold you to a standard that I know you can do.

You just got to put a little bit extra work in. So I think that that's important. Like we can still tell our kids we expect more from them, tell them that what they need to do and be a little harsh. But then I think we can also on the other hand, say, I love you unconditionally. I'm just pushing you to be your best self. Yeah, definitely. And unfortunately, I think a lot of kids grow up thinking that love equals good grades or, you know, love equals getting the basketball through the hoop every time. Right. And how do you grow up? How do you become a full adult and how do you, you know, pass that on to your children?

I mean, we just got to stop this. And I think then sometimes you have adults who are doing things to try to fill a need because they think that they're supposed to do this to show success and then to gain love, when in fact, that's not really that's not the right way to do it. And on top of it, it's not making them happy. No. And it's just not. Love, Right? Having children in our lives and loving them means that they are always a priority. They're healthy and happy existence physically and emotionally really rests on us. Rests on us doing a good job always, but particularly during this first five years.

Are there any other thoughts you have before we close on how to give these precious beings their very best chance? Early on, I think we pretty well covered it. I think we did. I mean, I would just say it goes so fast, right? Those first five years go so fast and you feel like you're just constantly spinning. At least I. Did. And you always have more time. You can get to it later. Yeah. And I think that the best advice one of my friends gave me, because she had had children first and I was so person who liked to get everything done was you're going to have to accept an eight, right?

Like you used to keep the house at a ten or you used to always do the laundry at this, this way and blah, blah, blah, always wash the dishes after you ate. And she was like, Cori, she's like, You're going to have to stop striving for tens or you're going to miss the stuff that's important. You're going to have to be okay with an eight. And she was right. I was like, Okay, I'm not making the bed when I wake. Up this morning. Like, That's okay. You know, I'm going to spend time with the baby. And there was just a lot of things where I just reprioritized and said, This is going to have to not be that important to me and I'm going to spend time over here, not just because it's important for the baby, but because it gives me so much joy.

Yeah, you know, there's. That, too. And I think like letting yourself say, I don't have to do everything at a ten is really it's really freeing because we try to be so good at everything. And I think sometimes we're okay with an need, you know, and then put the ten in into the love. Like that's where you need the ten. Yeah. So perfect that you say that that's the most important thing. Yeah. Yes. Well, thank you. You are just a breath of fresh air and I think just. I'm not going to have a baby. I did all that already was wonderful. But you just even in me as almost a grandmother.

Well, I'm not a grandmother, but I would like to be. Hint, hint. You just relieve stress. It's like we're all going to be okay if we just kind of stick to this happiness, joy, health, love and know that really one another where the most important things, it's not about making the perfect meal or getting perfect car or whatever those things might be. So thank you for helping us focus on people and family and community. Thank you for having me. I always enjoy being here and talking with you. Well, Will, welcome you back again. Thanks. Thank you so much.

And let us know what you think. We're happy to hear your comments and we'll see you next time.