Maternal Mental Health Now: The Truth About Perinatal Anxiety & Depression with Kelly O’Connor

Transcript auto-generated from the episode audio; formatting has been cleaned up, but wording is verbatim.

I'm Cynthia Marks and I head up the Holistic Psychoanalysis Foundation, established by my late husband, Doctor Bernard Bail. Welcome to And Now Love. Today we welcome Kelly O'Connor. Kelly is the executive director of mental maternal Health. Now her goal is to ensure that new families have the resources they need to address maternal mental health disorders so they can grow and thrive. Kelly became part of the Maternal Mental Health team many years ago, and was in fact transitioning to motherhood at the time she joined. She is a graduate of Northwestern University, having received a B.S. in Communication Studies and Sociology.

Kelly is going to graciously share with us the ways in which perinatal issues can be treated, and help us know that new moms and new families deserve all the help they can get. There ought to be no shame around the perinatal experience. Hi Kelly. And I, Cynthia. Thank you for joining us. Happy to be here. You have a wealth of information around this topic, and we as the general public, I think, have that much information. And it's an ultra important thing that we should be discussing and feeling comfortable with and helping those people in our population who are becoming mothers and becoming new families feel safe and held and respected.

Yeah, absolutely. I was one of those people who knew this much about it when I became pregnant and had my first child, so I can relate. Yes. Then how did you become involved in this organization? For me, it was a job ad that I saw on Craigslist. I see, yeah. I was I just had my first child who was about three months old. I was freelancing for another nonprofit organization, but I was very part time, and I was looking for more work to fill that time. And this organization was called the Los Angeles County Perinatal Mental Health Task Force. At that time and 2011, they were looking for a part time development manager, which was my backgrounds.

So I submitted a resume and I applied. And then once you got involved, were you surprised by how little most of us know and and sort of how dramatic the issues can be for sure. I my of my child is three months old. And so in hindsight, I was probably in the throes of a mild postpartum depression myself when I applied, and there was so much for me to learn about the issue. And I learned it because I was working for this organization. But had I not been working for this organization, I may not have ever learned it. Yeah. And if you don't mind, what how did that present itself for you?

For me, I remember a couple, a couple of instances, like when instances I was home with the baby and I like I wore her a wrap, like constantly around the house. And a colleague that I worked with had a baby six months prior to me. So she came to visit and she saw the baby on my chest and she said, oh, isn't that the best feeling in the world? And I looked at her and I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. There was another time when I just wanted to. We had a dog, so I wanted to take the dog on a walk. I left the baby at home with her dad and I just wanted to keep walking.

Like I didn't want to come back to the house. So I think I just struggled with the role transition and I never would have called it depression at the time. But maybe we're not entitled to even have the, the I that as a notion. You know you're you're pregnant. All these other people other women are pregnant. You know why why are you entitled to call this depression? Just get through it. I when I was pregnant, I thought, of course I'm going to breastfeed like cavewoman breastfed, right? And so I but I had a lot of trouble breastfeeding. Like a lot.

I think that also, you know, contributed to the way I was feeling. I, I at some point, I think two weeks at the, maybe the one week while child's checkup, I took the baby to the pediatrician and she had lost weight and she was like below her birth weight. And that was a big, you know, alarm went off in the doctor's office, and I felt like I got kicked in the gut, like I'm failing as a mom and not doing my job. And what resulted from that was I met with lactation consultant who put me on this three hour regimen of pumping and feeding and pumping and feeding and pumping and feeding in the middle of the night, and that carried on for several weeks.

And finally, around the six month mark, I think I finally got the hang of breastfeeding. But that was completely unexpected, and I didn't realize how many other moms will struggle with breastfeeding too. Wouldn't there be a better approach? And I think your organization is taking this on. You know, rather than just telling new moms, you know, you do this wake up three hours later, do this. I mean, what is the root cause of that? You know what, let's talk about what's happening with you. Why is why are you struggling with this? And and rather than having you feel less than or judged or like you're doing something wrong.

Get to whatever it is. That's the cause. Yeah. I think all pregnant people need to know that postpartum depression or the clinical term is perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, because that covers more than depression. There's a lot of anxiety. It also covers pregnancy as well as the postpartum period. So I think all people who are planning to have children and to give birth need to know that this is an issue, and it affects a lot of people across the country. It affects 20% of new parents. It's amazing. But in some in some populations that percentage is much higher.

So it's very common. And I think that's the number one thing people should know. It's a very common disorder. But they also need to know that there's things you can do to prevent and mitigate and treat it. And it's very treatable. One thing people need to know is that there are risk factors. Certain people have higher risk factors for having perinatal depression or anxiety if they have previous history of depression or anxiety, they're more likely to have depression and anxiety during pregnancy or postpartum. And is it then magnified. To be if they are a single mom or a young mom, they have higher risk factors for having perinatal depression or anxiety.

If they are a victim of domestic violence, high risk, obviously, if they're struggling with financial struggles or, you know, like housing, high risk. So some are very obvious. Others are more less obvious. I mean, but you know, you can be very financially secure, have a supportive family and husband and have all the other means available to you and still struggle. And how do we help society come to terms with this, that it exists and it's not okay to not be aware of it. It's not okay to not be supportive. One way to do it is through the medical system, right?

When you're pregnant or postpartum, you're interacting with the health care system at a much higher rate than other times of your life. You go in for prenatal visits at least once a trimester, and more frequently, the closer you get to your delivery date. And then you're bringing. Once the baby's born, they have a plethora of well-child visits, not to mention sick child visits. But the problem is that our health care providers are trained in the physical health of the body and not the mental health. So they're very reluctant often to address mental health needs because they haven't received the proper training to do that.

And so hard to believe in this day and age. Yeah, absolutely. And then once they do screen, let's say they are screening for perinatal depression or anxiety. They don't. If they encounter a patient that's struggling, they don't know where to refer. So there's a lack of referral resources and mental health clinicians that are trained in this area that particularly medical insurance. So there's maybe a recognition that, yes, this individual is struggling or has some challenges, but then that's it. Yeah. Yeah. They're sort of like go home. Figure it out yourself.

What about cultural differences. There's some great letters from people who have benefited from your services. And I noticed a couple of them were, were noting that in their culture this is just not even allowable, that you would speak up and say, hey, I'm struggling or that you would even struggle. And so if you don't even have in your head that you're allowed to recognize it yourself, and yet you are hurting yourself and potentially your baby, how do it how do you help people with that? Yeah, I think the cultural considerations, it's really important to keep in minds like in the Hispanic population, many new moms won't speak up about their their struggles.

Or if they do, they're told to go to church and pray away. And the black population and, you know, walking through the world as a black woman has its own stressors. Yes. And black women are meant to be tough, right? They're expected to be tough. And so when a black woman struggling with depression, she's less likely to to express that because she's not fitting that norm that's expected of her. There's also a fear of if you express that you're feeling depressed or anxious, or you're having suicidal thoughts, that you might get reported to DCFs and the child welfare system may become involved.

So a lot of people, particularly black and brown communities, won't speak up about their symptoms out of fear of that their child will be separated from them. Is there something that you're doing in your organization to create a safe space around that? Yeah, I mean, maternal mental now is our goal is to change the system of care in L.A. County for pregnant and postpartum people. And we're doing that through training of the health care providers and the social service providers, the mental health clinicians that are treating and caring for that, that population.

And a lot of those providers work at the county. So within DMA, it's it's the Department of Mental Health, Department of Public Health, Department of Children and Family Services. Right now we're talking about, well, we've actually created an online course that's free for anyone to take up on parenting. There's two courses. One is called perinatal mental health one and one what to know. And the other one's called perinatal mental health. Two and one. How to help. And these are available to those providers who complete the course. And are you seeing that you're getting a lot of interest.

I think we've had 3000 users complete the course since it launched. And when did it launch? Two years ago. That's pretty awesome. Yeah. And but we see that as very much a precursor to more work and training. So specifically with DCFs right now, we're in conversations about designing a training program where their social workers take that course as a precursor. And then one of our staff members will meet with supervisors that work at social work supervisors at CVS. Can you just describe what DC FS is? Yeah, that's Department of Children and Family Services.

So the child welfare system in L.A. County. And they are supposed to do what. They respond to reports of abuse and neglect that are reported. And our trainings are meant to. When I t CFS social worker enter enters a home to investigate a report, we want them to do so with the lens of does the parent need services? Is the parent struggling with mental health issues or financial issues or other issues? Are those issues can we address those issues so we can keep the family together as opposed to removing the child from the home and causing more trauma for both the parent and the child?

Yes. And is there any reason to remove the child outside of the fear that the child is not going to be well taken care of? Is is it? We just need to move on to the next patient or the next client. And this is the easy solution. Or is there some thought given to that? The traumatic experience that that is. There's definitely a shift happening at at DCFs right now. I think DCFs social workers are overworked. There's not enough of them, and they're responding to all these reports, and they just kind of need to get through the day. And however, last couple of years, DCFs has introduced a new program called Birth to five.

And the design of this, the majority of DCF cases come from families with children 0 to 5. So the idea behind the birth to five program is to provide those additional supports to those families, because they do recognize that separation will cause trauma and that trauma can be ongoing. So the idea behind birth to five is is exactly what I've said. It's like to enter the home and to do the investigation with that lens, that maybe we can just provide the family more resources and keep them together. And then I suppose there's follow up on that, right?

Absolutely. But no DCF as social worker wants to remove a child from the home. But there's a very stringent requirements to do that or not or to keep them together. What are some of these stringent requirements? Well, they're concerned about the safety and the health and safety of the child. So if there is a I. Guess that's number one. Immediate risk of danger, then they are going to on the side of caution. Right. And that and that it's very nuanced. Right. But they also if you look at the numbers, there is a much higher rate of child separation in black and brown families.

So there is an element of racial bias in this work, right? When you enter a home and you see, let's say you see a black family and let's say the father's yelling that could be interpreted by the social worker. One way that's different than if they entered a home of a white family. And the father's yelling, right? So there's a lot of work being done in order to identify implicit bias and make sure that that's not an element in the decision making. What kind of work is that? That's seems like a giant challenge to get to the root of. It's Dei training.

Yeah, there's a there's a lot of different training modules and approaches to it, but the number one goal of that is just for the individual to become more curious about the people that they're serving, as well as about their own response. So the people that they're serving. Kind of replace judgment with curiosity. It would seem that at the very beginning of one's career, if they're thinking, I'm going to do this sort of social work, that element in curiosity instead of judgment. Fair treatment would be foremost. Yeah, like like I said, I think people go into the fields because they want to help families.

They don't want to remove children from the home. Doctors go into the medical profession because they want to help people. They don't want to miss a severe symptom of postpartum depression and then have that patient hurt themselves, you know? Yeah, but the systems in which these individuals are working in are driven by, in the medical fields, driven by insurance companies. And they doctors are motivated to bill every day. The more billing they can get and the more money their hospital or clinic makes and so on. And then DCFs, it's really about not letting not, not.

It's really about a tragedy happened happening. And they could have intervened, you know. And so they are working in these systems that make it hard for them to kind of like do the work that they set out to do in a very meaningful way. They almost are forced to take the easy route. Yeah. Or quicker. Route. Yeah. We can settle this situation right now by separating these people, right. Because it's a lot of hard work to get to the bottom of what's going on. Right. But there is a shift. I do want to give DCFs credit for a shift in the recent years.

Good. I still think we have a long way to go. For example, many people in this in this work are mandated reporters, right? A teacher is a mandated reporter, even like a soccer coach as a mandated reporter. Early childhood educators mandated reporter. So if they see any signs of child abuse and or neglect in a child that they're working with, they are supposed to call a phone number. There is an initiative in L.A. County now called the Mandated Supporting initiative. And that idea is let's not it's not a punitive measure to make a mandated report.

It's like, let's support the family that needs help. I see. So just turning the view. Yeah. And language means a lot, right? So kind of walk us through how someone would come to you and what they would get in terms of support, like maybe an example story of a family or a woman that comes to you knowing or maybe not even knowing that she needs help? Sure. Well, maternal Health now has a number of different programs that we operate. The one that speaks directly to the birthing person in L.A. County is called Sana Sana. It's a peer support program for birthing people.

And Sauna Santa consists of a warm line that people can call and speak to a certified peer support specialist who has been through a similar experience and will talk to the caller to understand like what it is that they need, what are they struggling with, and they can co-create a care plan. Sometimes those calls are one off. They get a referral to a resources what they're looking for, and that's the last we hear from them. But other times these I think people will engage with our peer supporters over months and they meet weekly and check in and text each other and call and have a zoom meeting.

The peer support program also has two support groups underneath it. One of them is called Your Queer Parenting Journey, and it's for members of the queer community that are planning to in the process of, or have recently welcomed a child to their home. Because that family planning looks different. Members of the queer community and the other support group is called Strength and Tiny Steps, and it's for black moms that have nick experience, which is very unique experience and a high risk and a risk factor for postpartum depression. So how might a person find us is by calling that that warm line phone number.

They can also text or email. And on our website we have a referral form. If that someone can self-refer themselves to the program or one of their providers can refer them to the program that way. Two stories come to mind. The first one is a warm line caller. She had a child, a young child that was expressing, that was expressing that there, like gender fluidity in the way that they presented themselves. Right. And and the father and this relationship was not comfortable with that. And what it was, was responding to that in a way that made the caller uncomfortable.

And over a long period of time, the caller would meet with our peer, support her to just talk through these issues, get validation that their feelings were were valid, and kind of make a plan for what they wanted to do about that. They were concerned about the safety of their child's in the home. So ultimately, this person did leave the home with the child. And as pursuing a divorce with the partner. But before they could leave the home, they needed to secure financial means. They needed to secure a job. They needed to secure another apartment.

So our peer support walked alongside that person to sort of make this plan be there for them when they were really mad or like sad or expressed frustration. And so there's an emotional support that they provided to them. That's amazing that this exists, that someone could get that much kind of support and care. I say, that's amazing because again, we only know that much about it. I think when you're struggling with anything related to this, you think you're the only one. Yeah. And you're not. Yeah. I mean, it's it's really interesting. I think you'd probably the same for you.

But when you talk with people who are about to become pregnant or are pregnant, typically you hear, well, I can do it. You know, this has been going on forever. I mean, that's why we're here. And what's wrong with me if I can't, you know, suck it up and do this the right way, like everyone before me. But little do we know, everybody's stuffing these feelings and fears down because society doesn't let us have them, right. And the other story I had in mind was a member of our Strength and Tiny Step support group, who's again, a black mother whose child was in the NICU at the time that she joined the group wetlands.

A child in the nicus often a preterm delivery. They're they're born early, they're low birth weight. And they need a lot of medical intervention. So, you know, to grow and sustain life and things that you don't think about. The NICU experiences, like oftentimes these these women go into labor before they had a baby shower. Right? They had a baby shower planned. Yeah. But, the baby came early. And do some of these women feel like they've done something wrong themselves? Yep. And then people will give them onesies or diapers that would fit a normal weighted sized baby at birth.

But their baby, it's way too big for their baby and stuff like that. So they start with nothing. They start with nothing. Yeah, a lot of Nicki moms carry a lot of guilt for the peer support, or one of the two peer supporters that facilitates this group shared that she had her baby who was in the nick. You 15 plus years ago. It was a struggle. She got out of the nick. She's doing great. But then when she had her second baby, she was working with the doula and the will ask her, hey, are you black? And Dominique said, yes, I'm black. And the doula pointed out to her, did you know that black women are more likely to have an acute baby, or have low birth weight baby or preterm delivery?

Because of this? You know, the additional stressors? Yukari being a black woman in society. So weathering effect is is a term for it. And I had no idea. And it took a lot of guilt off of her shoulders to know that it wasn't something that she did. So yeah. And that's the thing about this support group. Dominique has gone on now she's a birth worker leading a peer support group for other moms, a similar experience. And then I think three members of our Strength and Tiny Step support group are also following that path and becoming birth workers so that they can support other moms in a similar experience.

That is so great. And yeah, and to be able to speak to it from your from your own experience. And so Dominique was asked these questions while she was pregnant with her second child. Right. So. Right. And did she struggle with the birth of her second child? I don't believe the second child was in the nick. Yeah. Well, in in our world what we want to communicate is that moms deserve to be treated with such care and get all of the help that they ask for, and that there is zero wrong with that. And what these pregnant people are doing is, you know, creating the next generation and the generation after that.

And, and whatever we're experiencing during pregnancy is put upon this baby that we are holding and as much support, as much love as we can give those women, the better off they'll be. Which means that not only do they need support, but they need to come from a healthy place themselves, truly understanding who they are versus what's been put upon them by generations before them, by current issues, by judgment. And it's just it's so daunting. But yet this sounds corny, but it's the way we're going to be able to change humanity. I mean, we're so busy beating each other up and judging each other and going to war.

And if we don't give moms a chance to do their very best and come at this from their hearts, we're never going to be successful. When we do an exercise and our trainings with health care providers called the good Enough mom. And we ask our training participants like what is the perfect mom? And you know, what you hear is, you know they're always have their hair done. They're dressed to the nines. They work, they don't work. They you know they breastfeed. It's a very impossible list to achieve. And then we ask them what what's a good enough mother?

And we brainstorm what that looks like. And we do this exercise. It's very clear that the societal expectations are just impossible to reach, and that all that baby really needs is to know that they're loved and that they're secure and they're cared for and and whatever it takes for you to be a good enough mother is all that's necessary. And oftentimes it's just reminding a mom that you need to take care of yourself so that you can take care of your baby. And it's the age old oxygen mask comparison, right? Like if you're on a plane, you put your oxygen mask on first and then you do so for your child.

So we like to remind, new parents of that. That's fantastic. And and just that very idea of being good enough, just hearing you say that you can takes tension away from me. It's like, wow, as a mom with a newborn, if you didn't have to be faced with all of this stereotypical stuff, you could so better do your job from love. Because that just would be coming hopefully, you know, sort of more naturally without having to meet the societal expectations. Right. So your organization is based in Los Angeles and I imagine there are other organizations in Los Angeles that are doing similar things as well.

And as in other cities. Yeah. I'd like to talk a little bit about our founder. Okay, good. We were founded in 2007 by Kimberly Wong, who is a mom who had severe postpartum depression when she was home from the hospital. She called up her ObGyn because she knew something was terribly wrong and she asked them for help. Terribly wrong, emotionally, emotionally. And he said, you're fine. You're just a Type-A personality. Relax, get some sleep. You'll be okay. This happens to all women. Yeah. Her concerns were completely dismissed. Yes, she ended up being hospitalized on two separate occasions for suicidality, separated from her, her infant daughter and the care she received in the psych ward is was subpar at best.

But ultimately, Kimberly was lucky and she recovered, and upon her recovery, she thought to herself, if I had so much trouble finding help and I am well educated, have good health insurance, have a supportive partner and family, I speak English, I have a car that I can get to appointments with. Like what would I have done without any one of those resources available to me? And Kimberly, works for the office of the Public Defender. She is an attorney, and I credit that for her founding the organization the way she did, because she's very well versed in county systems.

So she started cold calling people members of her care team, friends, people at the Department of Public Health and so on, and convene these meetings of volunteers. She made empanadas, homemade to entice people to come to these meetings. And this group of volunteers decided, you know, what's the biggest barrier to care? And they decided the biggest barrier is lack of informed providers. So initially we developed these trainings and went to different organizations that are seeing pregnant and postpartum people. So that includes community clinics and includes home visitation programs, other social service agencies, and we train them, and we still do that to this day.

We train them on on how to identify and how to respond to perinatal mood and anxiety disorders. So yes, there's a lot of organizations in L.A. County serving that 0 to 5 population. And we like to think that we've trained almost all of them. But there's constant like turnover. So there's never going to be there's never not going to be need for training. Right? Sure. And yes, there's other organizations in the country that cater to this issue. There's a group called the Perinatal or Postpartum Health Alliance out of San Diego. There's postpartum Support International is is international, as well as National.

There's a California chapter of the of Postpartum Support International. There's a new group called the coalition for Perinatal Wellness Alliance. So there's a lot of work being done, not just in California but across the country on this issue, which is markedly different than 15 years ago when I started at the organization. And so great and hey, I'd like to thank it sounds like you're making a pretty big dent in the way people look at this topic I have. So are there enough organization ones giving thought to the feelings or the struggles of a woman while she's pregnant?

Or. And not every pregnancy is planned. Many, many aren't. But some new families are thinking about pregnancy before they're pregnant. Is their thought given to that phase two? There is. It's a balance of striking. This is an issue. It's very common. And here's what to do about it. Here's how to recognize it and here's what to do about it as a and also we don't want to scare people. It could be depressed during pregnancy. It could be depressed postpartum. Like we don't want we don't want to be all doom and gloom about it. Yeah. So I think it's a it's a fine line of factual information.

And also this may not happen to you. Right? I mean, this may or may not happen to you if it does. Yeah. There's help. Available. Yeah. I mean that is a big, big thing right, right. I think it's also important to educate the partners, the fathers, the grandparents, the friends, so that if they see it, they're in a better position to sort of start a conversation with that birthing person then, than the health care provider. That's a task, you know, in trying to make families understand that support from them is huge. And even if what you're seeing and the person who's pregnant in your family doesn't match up to your standards of what that should be, you know, how do you step out of your expectation lens and and come from love?

Yeah. So sometimes families can be an additional stressor. Yeah. And you know, you think, gosh, you know, my mom did this and she had six kids and and why am I, you know, with my one little pregnancy, I'm feeling like I'm feeling I'm just got to get over it. I think it's important to remind people that things are different today than they were, like 30, 40 years ago when our parents had us right. Cost of living is so much higher. Mothers are now like a lot of mothers need to work in order to make ends meet. Yeah, childcare is extremely expensive and those that decision making is a additional stressor on the family unit.

So it's hard to compare. Like us versus a generation ago. Like I want to it advised against it. Yeah. And who knows what was kept under wraps anyway. So I mean certainly then women were still having some of these issues. Maybe they weren't as pervasive, but. I have a story. A few years ago, I was invited to a meeting in Massachusetts that is pretty. Massachusetts as a state is pretty advanced in terms of this issue area. They have a program called CPAp for moms. It's a reproductive of Psychiatry consultation program. It's basically a support for ObGyn.

And other medical providers can call and speak to a reproductive psychiatrist in real time when they have a patient that's let's say they're on medication and they don't know how to manage that medication during pregnancy. Right. They say this reproductive psychiatrist can provide advice on that. But they were holding a meeting. A man who lives in Worcester had read an article in the paper about this program, and he came to the meeting and shared his story. And his story was that his wife took her own life. 60 or maybe 40 something years ago. And he had wished that this program was in existence then because she was struggling from postpartum psychosis and no one knew what it was and no one knew what to do with her.

And so he raised his his child on his own. Right. Well, that's just chilling. Yeah. And then I went. I'm also from Massachusetts. I visited my parents right after that meeting, and I shared this with my dad, and I think it really struck a chord with me because the the man who came and spoke at the meeting was, you know, very Irish, and he was a former police officer. And that's that was my grandfather, my dad said. And I was sharing his story, only to learn that my dad had an aunt that was sent away shortly after giving birth to, like an institution.

And no one talked about, like. And then she came back and she was like, never quite herself after that. But, and no one talked about it. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And I was like that. This is what I do for a living. Yeah, yeah. So it does demonstrate how far we've come because this issue isn't new. No, it existed generations ago. We just handle it differently. But I think in some parts of our country, it's still handled like it was 40, 50 years ago. Sometimes, In the state of Massachusetts, this program is widely known. Yeah. Well, in fact, it was the first program of its kind in the country.

Groups have advocated for additional federal funding for this type of program in to spread to different states around the country. So we have one now here in L.A. County. Oh my gosh, that's great. Other counties like it's own state. So yeah that is true. Yeah. So what about funding. How hard is that? I, I often wonder if it's difficult for organizations who are dealing with something like depression and mental health. Is does that in itself make it difficult to get funding because people need to believe in the issues? We've come a long way. In fact, again, because of this federal advocacy, there's two sources of funding at the federal level.

One for this reproductive psychiatry consultation program to spread to different states. And the second one, it funds the National Maternal Mental Health Hotline. So there's a national hotline that people can call and speak to a peer supporter and get referred to resources in their community. So those are the two main federal programs that support this issue. That said, we are in an unprecedented time frame if we're looking at the federal government. So I just don't know how long those those funding pots will be available if they will get cut.

So they haven't been cut yet. They have not been cut yet. But what's happening on the federal level is certainly having a trickle down effect on the state level. On California, we also have prop one, which is reallocating the money the state has for mental health services to substance use and serious mental illness issues versus prevention. So our prevention dollars are shrinking and our dollars for SMI, serious mental illness and substance use are increasing. And that's a concern of ours because perinatal addressing perinatal mental health disorders is a preventative measure, because if we don't treat it, it can turn into negative outcomes for the child.

It can turn into divorce and separation in the family unit. It actually, there's a study done that says untreated perinatal mental health disorders cost the state of California $2.4 billion in 2017. And that's measured in terms of productivity at work, lost productivity at work, increased health care appointments, increased health care costs. And that doesn't even likely account for what happens on the other end, let's say, where these funds are going now, which is to people with severe mental struggles. And they get there because they weren't treated when it could have been.

Exactly. Exactly. So luckily maternal health now is heavily funded by the philanthropic community. We have a very strong philanthropic community in L.A. County that understands the link between the parents mental health and the in early childhood development. We also generate our own revenue through our trainings. And we have conferences, webinars, online training that are fee based and individual donors as well. And your courses, those are they're open to anyone. You don't have to be a health care provider necessarily. You may just want to be informing yourself to inform yourself.

Yeah, true. But also driver of that is, if you're a licensed psychologist or marriage and family therapist or social worker, you need to pursue so many CCS continuing education units every two years to maintain your license. So that's a that's a big driver for that. And but this is such an excellent avenue because I think it there's so many of those courses that are required that may be helpful. I mean they're all designed to be helpful. Yes. But this is potent. Yeah. And it's not addressed in the medical school or in the graduate school curriculum.

Sorry. Not to any significance as of yet. Yeah, well, there's an awful lot of women's issues that don't get addressed. Yes, that's true a lot. And we need to turn that around right away. Right away. So thank you for doing what you do. Thank you. And I think that we're in alignment because it's clear that you know the importance of love and love for oneself and working from your authenticity. Therefore, then having empathy for those around you, whether you're a mom caring for a new baby or an outsider looking at someone who's struggling and, you know, seeing that as something you can be helpful with rather than something to close the door on.

I'd like to share my own story a little bit when, like I said, as we discussed, I found to maternal mental health now through a job ad and when I was three months postpartum with my first child. But I consider it to be one of the biggest blessings in my life. I've been there now almost 15 years, and in those 15 years I had two more children and an ectopic pregnancy that landed me in the, E.R. and with emergency surgery. And when I post surgery, they put me on the postpartum floor where I heard all these babies crying around me. And I thought, this isn't right.

But subsequently, my my sister, she lost her first child six hours after birth, and that was devastating for her and our whole family. And then after that, I went through a divorce. And where paternal postpartum depression is likely a factor. But through all of those challenges and ups and downs, I had this community of loving, empathetic, knowledgeable, compassionate people that I could turn to for advice, information, a hug, whatever was needed. And so that's my vision for maternal mental health. Now, to serve for all birthing people across all the county, is that I want them to have a community that they can turn to for whatever it is that they need, and that's what we're trying to do.

Well, you're doing a great job. Thank you. I mean, what a blessing for you to have this community and to absolutely know that you could go to them for support. And I think I think a lot of us think, well, we have a community, but we don't really I mean, they they are here to help. But if I share with them what is really going on there, I'm going to frighten them. Or like you said, I may end up losing my child to the system. So your own story speaks to the possibility that that yes, yes, you can have this, you can have the support that you need.

And we just have to continue to help people figure out how to reach out for that. You mentioned the dads. But paternal postpartum depression. Yeah. Yeah. So does that, kind of present in a similar way? Yeah. Well, 10% of new fathers will experience paternal postpartum depression, and that number goes up when their partner is experiencing postpartum depression. It tends to present, yeah, differently than moms. Dads will self isolate. They might be more irritable or angry. They might drink more. And so these are all signs to look out for amongst the father.

Yeah. And then it's okay to you know, it's appropriate to ask him how he's doing. It's a major life transition. He's going to have an emotional reaction to that. And many men aren't willing to admit that they're having an emotional transition occurring. Absolutely. It's tough. So stigmas there too. Yeah. So that's something that you address when you can. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a group here in LA called Love Dad that's working to address that issue. Specifically, they're training providers to look at the whole family and their emotional wellness.

And they also will do like home visits for the father. That's terrific. This program that you have serves basically anyone. Yep. In need. Yep. Anyone anyone is free. And you have a presence on Instagram. You do. And that is that a good place to find out more about you? Absolutely. Yeah. Our handles at maternal mental health now. At maternal health now and then to reach you to say, find one of these warm lines or the other services that you offer, one could Google and look up your organization and sort of fill in what seems appropriate for any individual's needs.

Yep. Thank you very, very much. This is just the tip of the iceberg and a very important topic. And I'm just grateful that you've done so much to make us more comfortable with it. And I really want this to become this. So thank you so much. Please follow, rate and share this podcast and pass this episode along to someone who might need it. It's really valuable. This is and now, love. Listen to your dreams and live from your heart. Thank you. And.