Listening to Dreams: Insights for a Better Self and World with Dr. Loren Weiner

Transcript auto-generated from the episode audio; formatting has been cleaned up, but wording is verbatim.

Hi, I'm Cynthia Marks. I head up the Holistic Psychoanalysis Foundation established by my late husband, Dr. Bernard Bale. Welcome again to and Now, Love. Lauren is back today with dreams. I feel like each of the podcasts where we share dreams, their interpretations, and the ways in which they help us see ourselves is truly a treasure so far. I've related to so much of what Lauren has shared, either in a written kind of way or in a way that hits a nerve or sparks an emotion. And I continue to be curious, and I want to know more. I hope the same for you.

So let's get started. Hello. Hello. Hi. Thank you for having me back. What's new? New dreams. New dreams. New dreams. We have a new patient who was generous and agreed to have the dream shared, which is always lovely. Yes. Thank you, patient. Thank you. I think that's a lot. It's. It's huge. It's very gracious. So. And I think people feel they got something out of understanding their own dreams and want that to be known. Very generous. Yes. Yes. So we can jump right into it. Let's. Okay. So today I have a young woman in her early twenties. She came to me feeling lost about what direction to go in life.

She was intelligent and attractive and felt incredibly unsure of where to go. She felt her parents had always had big expectations for her, and she was now terrified that she would not be able to meet them. This sounds like a pretty common scenario. This is a really common scenario. But a lot of people don't even grasp that they can do something about it, perhaps. Right. And a lot of people wouldn't end up, you know, this is so common that they're not going to end up in a therapist's office because they're unsure of where to go. I think she felt intuitive that this was a deeper piece for her.

And luckily she had friends who were in treatment and talked about it freely. And so she could sort of be like, like this is interesting. I wouldn't mind having somebody help me figure out me. Sounds beneficial. Right. She was the youngest of two sisters and was thought to be the smart one in the family. She told me that her parents were still married and had a reasonably good relationship, though she felt her father was overly occupied with his work as an engineer and head of his own company, and that her mother was often lost in the books she was reading or in the novel she had been writing for many years.

Her parents married later in life and then had two children back to back because they were worried they wouldn't have enough time otherwise. She told me that she initially that she thought she and her sister were close, but then as she talked about it, she realized they didn't have a lot of interests in common. And they would see each other when there was a family dinner or a birthday party or something. But they didn't do a lot together outside of that, even though they were, you know, lived 10 minutes from each other. So they were on the phone a couple of times a week checking in.

Right. Exactly. They weren't, you know, hanging out, going to parties together. They were close in age. You know, they didn't do any of that. As the treatment progressed, she became more aware of how separate the is she actually felt from the whole family, from her sister and her parents and how restricted the family was emotionally. You know, it was. Pretty. In this isn't to say people didn't laugh. They didn't have a good time sometimes, but it was just sort of everything was constricted, you know, there just wasn't a lot of room emotionally.

She started to become very aware of that. And did she feel like her sister was more on the same page with her parents? So it was sort of the three of them. And then she. Felt she was on the same page with her parents. And the sister was actually the one who had more leeway. The sister looks much more free now. Later in treatment, what kind of becomes clear is that that freedom has a cost. And it isn't just that the sister somehow managed to be free in this family where nobody else felt that free. She could express things more, certainly, but had her own ways of being restricted.

So her parents were serious people. They were concerned with the state of the world. They followed politics closely, they supported the arts, and they had a circle of friends they socialized with. But overall, she felt that they could be hard to connect with. So it all looked really nice on the surface, you know, And she came and telling me. My parents are fine. Everybody, you know, life is fine, except she felt lost and that doesn't seem like a huge thing at her age. So you have to investigate it. Okay. But you're coming to me with this feeling.

What is that really about? What does that mean for you? And then as you, we dig in and we'll see what it meant. And we've spoken before. I think so often we start out if we're fortunate enough to have an experience like this saying, My family's fine, my parents are fine. What's going on with me? Me, me? I mean, it's I don't touch that part, right? And I think that's very common. You get that 60, 75% of the time, you know, unless somebody's got a very specific problem, it usually takes some time for that to emerge for people to say, okay, wait a minute.

But I felt this but I noticed that. So she had recently graduated with a degree in science and thought she would go to med school When it came time to take the cat and apply to school, she felt, you know, she stopped. She sort of froze and thought. But I don't know if this is for me, which I think was a smart thing to do. She thought she needed to think about it because she wanted to go to med school for herself and not because it was her parent's wish for her. And it could have been med school, it could have been law school, it could have been whatever was she wanted to know it was for her.

So is that sort of the stimulus for her really thinking about herself in a bigger way? Like, wow, this is I'm at this big crossroads. Why am I uncomfortable and then start thinking about other aspects of her life? Yes, that's pretty much how it went. Is is okay, hold on. This is really and this wasn't just sort of stopping, you know, she really had a big feeling about this, that she had this sort of nagging sense that she was going to end up in med school and be unhappy. And this is a big commitment. And and luckily, this is a woman who, you know, smart enough, she could do many things.

Her thought was, am I going to lock myself into this? Is this even for me? Whose path is. Whose path is this? Which great, right. That's wonderful that she could even ask that question. That's a nice start. She is at that age where? I don't know, I feel like so many of our youth are happy. We're coasting along. We know what we want to do. We think we might know what we want to do for the rest of our lives, and that you get to that place where you actually think you get to decide and that this decision is going to determine your life. And I mean, chances are it's not really.

You can always do something different, but that's an awful lot to face at that particular age. I think there's like a 2 to 3 year range where all of a sudden you're the rest of my life is now depending on what I do today. It is tough. I mean, I think that's that's just tough, you know, that we have it sort of set up that way. And often times for people, they may end up doing something. Is it their passion? Maybe, maybe not. I think people get pushed along, pulled along because there's this pressure and there's a need to solve it. And part of the dilemma may be that they can't solve it.

They end up doing something. It all looks fine, right? They, you know, join society. But it may not be that it has anything to do with who the person really is. That's what becomes clear, even in cases where the person isn't under such distress psychologically, you know, this isn't major anxiety. This isn't major depression. You know, all of this is just a knowing that something doesn't feel right and you don't know how to solve them. And I think that is incredibly common. And the reason I want to go over it, you know, these are short dreams, but the messages, the in the dreams have such wide implications for everybody, and they show us about who we are and where are we really going?

Not just as an individual, but as a group. How are we going to start to think about ourselves and how we want people to be able to know themselves so that decisions can be made towards a truer, better life? I'll get into the first session. I have a couple of sessions here. This is early in treatment. You know, we're a few couple months in, so pretty quickly. And of course, she's talking about the things that were most important to her and what brought her in. You'll sort of see, you know, that there was some hesitancy about med school and we'll see sort of what she decides or where she goes in this session.

She comes in saying, my week has been good. I'm still not sure what I really want to do. So I feel like maybe I should start studying for the MCAT. I'm dreading it. I know I will really need to buckle down and put a study plan together. That means no fun and a lot of work. I've talked to some friends who already went through this, so I feel lucky that they can tell me what worked and what didn't in terms of resources and strategy. I think the bigger thing is just whether I want to do this or not. I feel so much pressure from my parents and I just want to feel like it's for me too.

I think my dad would have gone to med school if he could do it all over again. Of course, he would have done some weird M.D., Ph.D. bioengineering program or something in the super nerd category, but I think he always felt that he missed his calling that way. I think he likes engineering a lot and his mind works that way. But I need to know that this isn't just me fulfilling his dreams. So I said, I think there's still the basic question to consider. Do you want to be a doctor? She said, I think I do. I can imagine myself doing it. I think. I mean, does anyone really know if they're cut out for a profession before they get there?

I like people enough. I like to help people. I'm good at science, so I think it's a good fit. I just don't know if I'm in love with the idea. So I said to her, What aren't you in love with? She said, I worry that it will either be too much science or that it will be too much about the business of it and not enough about treating people. I don't know if the reality of it will square with most of what I've seen on TV about it. I'm embarrassed to say it, but that's where I got most of my ideas about being a doctor. I think way too many hospital shows, so it's either emergencies and saving lives left and right or seeing how there is not enough help for those that really need it.

And struggling with that. I guess on TV you can just break all the rules and give someone $1,000,000 life saving surgery for free. And somehow I know that isn't real life. And I said, Well, it sounds like it would be good for you to find some actual doctors and talk to them and see what they say about it. And she said, I plan to do that. I have a few connections with people, so I want to do that before I really jump into it. And I said, Well, if you don't do med school, what else appeals to you? So that I think I could see myself doing something creative, like my mother, she's writing her novel, but I really do admire her sticking to it and working on it every day.

I don't know that I'm creative enough, but I wish I was. I would probably end up doing something with science since that's what I'm good at. I just wish I was more convinced that it was the right way to go. And I feel the pressure of time too. I don't want to let too much time pass or I won't finish until I'm older and that doesn't sound good to me. I just feel a little alone with it. I would talk to my parents, but I think I know the direction they want me to go and I don't want to get stuck there. I don't think my sister struggles with this type of decision as much.

She gets to be the creative one she always has been, and I think they expected her to have a career in the arts and the pressure seemed like it was so much less. So she's studying theater and she's good at it. And I have to admit, I'm jealous. I want to feel like I could be free like that. But I never could do that. I would get stuck and not be able to let loose and get into a role. She seems more free. And I said, Well, where did she get that? So I'm not sure exactly, because my mom is creative, but still seems kind of tightly wound like me and my dad, My sister is so much more loose and kind of goes with the flow.

She's adventurous and will try anything and that's not like the rest of us. Maybe it's like my mom, but it's sort of just her and maybe my parents can live vicariously through her a little. Maybe in another life they would be more like hippies. So I asked her what she was dreaming about and she said, this was a hard dream to remember. I was in a classroom or somewhere inside, and there were desks or tables around. I was with someone, I think a woman. And I think that she needed to change how she was doing something and be more like a monkey or an ape instead than follow the plan.

I think the person was trying to decide if she wanted to do that or not and seeing the implications of it. There was a lot more to it than I could remember and there might have been other people around. I don't really know why I would have someone needing to be more like a monkey or an ape. It was weird in the dream. I don't even know what this was about. And I said, So what? What is the plan she's supposed to follow? And she said, I have no idea. I said, So it sounds like if if she's being told to follow the plan, she wasn't following the plan.

So, you know, what was she doing? What was happening? I'm trying to get some sense of the story here, so I don't have a sense of that either. I just feel so hard to know, like I can't quite think clearly when I try to understand. It seems like it should be simple and I should be able to answer your questions. So I just, you know, said okay. And it said, Well, let me ask you a few more. Let's see what comes. I said, Why be a monkey or an ape? What what does that make you think about? And she said, Well, I guess the idea was that a monkey would just do what it was told.

So, you know, we had some more back and forth and sort of trying to flesh this out. And and I said, Well, I think you're the woman and you're supposed to just be like your father and live out his dream of med school. So when you start to question it, you get the message that you better stop and get back to the plan. Just be a monkey and do it like dad. I think med school might be the tip of the iceberg given you get this warning when you just start to question med school. It's interesting that you came in today saying you would probably just do med school.

I suppose the pressure was really there unconscious to get in line. And she said, now that you say it, it makes sense. So does that mean I'm not supposed to go to med school and I said, Well, why don't you first see how this interpretation feels to you? Let's start there. So in a way, she's just looking for something to give her a stamp of approval on. Yes or no. Right. Why don't you just tell me what I should do? But the problem is that I'm just the parents, right? Right. So I'll tell you. You know, I'll solve it for you. And what you don't have to do then, is feel what's right for you.

So that's And look, people want this all the time, and it's very seductive, you know, just how you must know everything, right? So just tell me the answer well and truly. Look, I can't say yet whether she should go to med school or not. All I know right now is she's telling me she's supposed to be a monkey fall in line and do med school like her dad wanted her to. Now, might she herself be a good doctor and enjoy it? Maybe. But we have to wait for her to weigh in on that. So obviously, she's got to get to her true feelings about this as much as she can, because yet again, she's venturing into something that is on so many levels and unknown.

You all of a sudden you're in the emergency room and you're like, my goodness, this really isn't what I wanted to do. I mean. Potentially, right? So what we're hoping is that, you know, quickly enough and that's like this is a big ask right quickly enough, because she says, I feel time pressure. I want to have some understanding about what this is. Well, at the very least, we can start here, which is, well, you're supposed to be a monkey and you're feeling the pressure to be a monkey because what you came is you came to me questioning this. But you come in this session saying, I know what?

I guess I'm just going to do this. I'm going to fall in line. And that's sort of a safety valve, too. It's like, I'll just work on this while I try and figure myself out. Absolutely right. And look, nobody in society is going to go, you're wasting so much time. You're going to med school. No, Right. There's a lot of reward for that. It's attractive. But at the moment, what she's saying is. But it's not for me now. Will it be eventually? Maybe, But it's not for me right now. Right now, if I'm doing it, I'm just a monkey. And if I'm a monkey, I'm dad.

So I'm not me. And that's the big piece here, right? If I do this, I am not me. Okay, then you better keep investigating. What would you want? Who are. You? And obviously, this is where you're going. This is where we're going. That's right. So I. You know, I asked you to sit with this a minute. You know, I'm not going to give you the answer right now. I don't know that I could but sit with it. Let's see where your mind goes. Let's see what happens. So she said, okay, makes me think of last weekend. Okay, so I want to follow this and see where does our mind go.

Right. We have the dream. We have an interpretation now where she said I was with Kevin and we pull into this underground parking lot so we can go up to this theater. He's driving and I'm in the passenger seat and he rolls down the window to ask the ticket guy which side we should park on, because it's a big space. And we could either go to the right or the left, and I couldn't stop myself. I'm leaning over the driver out talking to the guy, having to sort of shout, trying to say, which, where do we go? I didn't even realize I was doing it. And Kevin's upset with me and I really didn't get it at first, but it was so rude and it was also totally my dad.

He would have to be in charge and Kevin felt like I emasculated him. I felt terrible about it, but it just flowed out of me naturally. So I think what you're saying makes sense. Of course, I still want you to tell me whether I should go to med school or not. But I get it. I'm a lot like my dad in ways I'm just starting to see. So she got it right. Okay, I want you to tell me, but I get it. Here I am. I was totally my dad this weekend, and it got me in trouble. Fascinating. And Kevin is. Kevin is a friend of hers, and. But he's in the driver's seat.

The ticket guy is right here, Right? You know, this is not so much that he's a man, so he should get to talk. It's the driver's right next to a person trying to do this. Why do you have to lean over and totally take charge as though Kevin couldn't do it? Yeah, but I think her father did that in the family with everybody. You know, it's sort of like he'll just. He'll take charge. I just have to say. I mean, I can so relate to all of this. I can only imagine that thousands of other people can relate to this, too. It just really strikes chords. Okay, good.

And hopefully what people will start to see, you know, you might be your father, you might be your mother, you might be some combination. But where, you know, her dream just says, yeah, I'm supposed to be a monkey. You know, they have expectations for me. They hear I'm trying to do what they want and I want to be a good daughter. Yeah, You know, I want them to be happy and proud of me, and I want to make their dreams come true. Of course I love them. But look at me. Just last weekend, I was my father. That's the problem, right? So in in all of their hopes, and let me say, you can have hopes for your children and not destroy their lives.

It's it's that unconsciously there was so much pressure on her. And I think that they had so many things that weren't fulfilled in themselves that it was sort of all directed this way. The daughter gets the the unconscious piece that wanted to be more free. Now, as I said, we can talk about whether she was really free, Right. Because even then you look free. But whose wish is it? Yes. So whether she's confronting it or not, she may have a similar set of questions about what she's doing. Is this really me or was she just her mother, you know, three days ago trying to write a novel or something like that?

That's exactly it. And so it's calling on all of us to say, look, it doesn't mean you have to be in a crisis, but maybe you have to start questioning, what am I doing? And seeing what it yields. Is this really what I truly want, you know, and what do my dreams tell me now? You know, Right. That's the harder piece if you are working with someone. But I think still, nonetheless, you know, this would be interesting. Why do I dream about I have to be a monkey and fall in line? Okay, about that. Where is that coming from? Right? Why am I dreaming about that?

Right? What? Wow. So I said to her, You had to be a copy, and you're just supposed to follow the plan. And I said, You know, look, every baby has to be a copy of the ancestors that came before. At least you tell yourself to weigh the consequences of that. What does that really mean? And is that the best thing for yourself? Because there's a piece in the dream at the end which says the person was supposed to weigh the implications. What are the implications of me being a monkey or not? But the pressures there when you just get back in line. So that's important.

We're always being ushered, you know, kind of like a dog herding sheep. You're always being pulled back with all of the pressure, the internal saboteur, get in line, follow your imprint, do what we want you to do or what we need you to do. That's for everybody. And there's a certain amount of comfort to that. It's like, I can feel when I'm in line. You dismiss your own feelings about stepping out of line. Right? Right. Or people, you know, they wrestle with them. well, but this is a good decision intellectually. Yes, right. But the heart gets left out.

And my parents, they had this in mind all along. They know best. Right. So you can see the dilemma. It's like there's more stuff to tell us to stay in line than to follow our heart. Exactly. And that that's the the big piece that so important to get across is because wherever this is showing up, whether you feel lost or you don't get to feel it, the problem is everybody has an imprint. And that's what we're all following. So you want to know where we get ourselves into trouble in the world. We want to know why we are making wars, why we're doing all kinds of things.

We have an imprint and we will repeat what happened to us in the womb battlefield. Everything that happens in the external world is really a repetition of what happened in the womb. And I think that's such a big piece to think about. Right? So you're always being asked to follow these plans that were put on you in the womb and they don't come with bows and ribbons and, you know, the way everybody imagines nice little baby animals in a meadow and you're running through it, you know, this isn't what goes on in the womb. Think of a horror movie. Think of being chased by all of these feelings that have come down through generations of pain and all the war and death and terror and abuse.

Everything that hasn't been able to be processed. Nothing can be solved in the outside world unless it is solved inside the person. And we as a group have to solve it inside each one of us. Because intellectually we know what's going on. All deserves a big stop sign. Stop this, stop the rape, stop the war. But we can't stop that. As long as all of that is raging inside of us. Right. All of this right. Comes out of a discussion about one young woman who comes in and says, I'm lost. Yeah, poor you, you're lost. And you are every one. Yes, everyone is lost.

And whether they know it or not, the dreams tell the truth and your dreams are actually going to come in and start going. But this isn't right and that isn't right. And that didn't feel right. And you're a monkey and you're being your father. And med school is just going to please your parents, but keep you a monkey. And if you start to weigh the implications, you'll be guided back. Here's the pressure. So she gets that. Then she tells me, Well, I had another dream. Okay, let's see what this one has to say. I'm talking to someone, maybe a woman or my friend Ian, and I am explaining to her or him that she or he can change his path.

I said that it means giving things up, and that's okay. It's okay to drop all of the plans made before and start over. The woman doesn't feel it's okay to do that. I think I give her some examples and say something weird that it's like dropping a loaf of bread. So she says, So now I get the first part of the message in the dream, meaning things can change, right? So she took our discussion and then she applies it to her second dream. I said, okay, I think I get where I'm going. And she says, I think it was a woman and I'm not sure why. I also have a memory of my friend Ian being there.

And I said, Well, tell me what comes to mind about Ian. She said, He's a really nice guy. I think he feels lost at the moment too. He's trying to figure out what he wants to do with his life and he might go into the family business, but he's trying to see if there's something else he'd rather do. But the money's hard to pass up, so he's giving himself a little time and he'll have to make a choice, I guess. Now it's easy to see why I put him in the dream. So why does the woman feel it isn't okay to change the plans? She said So obviously the woman is me and I don't know why.

And from the first dream now, is it about med school or really changing the big plan? And I said, Well, I would say the big plan. And I said, Well, why do you give the example of dropping the loaf of bread? And she says, I don't know. That part seems strange. And I said, Well, you know, I think if we think of bread as the staff of life, you would change your life or drop the life you have to get the one you're supposed to have. And a very important message in this dream. And you put it very clearly, people can change their paths and change their lives.

That's a great takeaway. So this is an incredibly hopeful dream because that's a message for all of us. Okay. We can change. You're going to have to say that 150 times for us to really have that sink in. We can actually change. Now it's work because you can just see in these little hints of dreams that as a person starts to think about whether she should do med school or not. Well, being a monkey, get back in line. This is a, you know, reasonably benign decision. Yeah. And how afraid she is of shifting that direction. Can't do it. The unconscious speaks up pretty quickly and just says, Now what are you going to you're going to change yourself.

You're going to change the plan. We had a plan. Yeah, stick with it. Stick with the pull back in line. That's right. Don't change the fundamental structure of how this was all set up. Don't monkey with your imprint. Don't change anything. Just keep walking. But she says, but you can change now. Yes, we have some, you know, resistance in it. The woman doesn't feel she could do it. All of that is fine, and I think she she gets that if this is a transparent enough dream. But the piece I really want to hammer home is that she's telling herself she can change.

Okay? She's now got hope. And I think she's telling all of us the world can change. She doesn't know this is just a young woman. But how interesting in a way, she's having dreams that speak to everybody. We can change. All right, well, let's get busy. So. So many of the dreams that we have, or maybe all of them are not just about ourselves as individuals. That's right. Right, right. It's a fine message across humanity. Yes, very much. Often I'll hear patients dreams. And I have to say, okay, I think you're having this dream for yourself and for all of us.

Here's what you're saying about humanity. Here's what you're saying about where we are going as a group or where we've been or what we're wrestling with, because it is that universal. And that does show up in dreams. And it's okay in her case, in all of our cases, to try another path. We have to. In fact, I think that's that's really what comes to us. You have to otherwise you just know, no offense to monkeys, you're just a monkey, you know, That's it. And so this is really critical. It sounds so. Yeah, this is so nice. Nice. And we know no big life or death situation here.

Go to school. Don't. That's. That's not really what this is all about. Are you going to get to be yourself or not? And if you are not yourself, we're going to continue to have the same mess in the world that we've always had because you have to do it the way everybody who came before you did it. This is where it's gotten us. So what would be different? Nothing. So until people get in touch with who they really are, then you could change the world. But has to start here inside all of us. And your dreams are a great way to see what you're really busy doing.

And as an individual. And we we make that change for our own betterment, whatever that might be, then we can almost in a tangible way, bring that out to the world. This was me, I thought, but this is the real me. And now I'm doing these things beyond that, being sort of on the surface like that, is there some amount of that message that this might sound nutty, that is given to each other unconsciously? Yes, not nutty at all. I think we are always in contact unconsciously. So, yes. One person. Yeah, it's sort of like you throw a pebble into a pond, ripples out.

One person starting to say, wait a minute, I'm going to contact me. What do I really feel about this that changes the person now, that changes every relationship that person has, and it changes the children that come from that person, be they male or female or whatever caretaker role that person's in or mentor, right? There is a new way of thinking and being that develops. So I think you'll see that this idea continues into the next session. And she starts with the dreams that I had a couple of dreams. She's into it. Now. She's into it. In the first dream, she says, I'm working in a lab and finding out something bad is going on.

So then the idea, which is kind of fuzzy to me, but it seems like the idea is that everything they're doing or that the person learned is wrong and should be reversed. I think I'm just telling people to keep working there, but reverse everything. And she said, And then I had a second dream. I was with some women, maybe my friend Robyn, and she's driving a silver BMW. I'm supposed to go with the team and get in the back seat. We're doing something illegal. I think I have four men's shirts that need to go to the cleaners and we do whatever this activity is.

And I think I was supposed to drop the shirts when we did it. I make a joke that this is what would happen to me. I would forget to drop off the shirts and drive around with them for a while. But I don't think they're happy with me for saying that. I think it had something to do with driving fast. So she said, That's all I could remember. And I know it's kind of confusing now. I listen to Dreams all day, so this is hardly confusing to me. Yeah. When you really, you know, can get into dreams that are, you know, three and 4 minutes long and twists and turns, this is pretty clear.

So I just asked her to tell me what came to mind about either dream. And she said, I don't really know where I am, but I seem to be working at this lab. I have no idea what they do there. But my feeling is it's bad stuff or I really Is that in the dream? I don't know if I stumble upon it or investigate it, but I think it's like I might just realize it. I also don't know why I want everyone to still work there, not quit, but do everything backwards. I don't know what that would even look like, but it made sense in the dream, as though if that could be done, then things would be okay or it would reverse the problem, I guess.

And I said, Well, what kind of bad stuff? And she said, I don't even think I can say I don't know what it was. It looks like a standard research laboratory. People lined up working and I'm one of them. Maybe it's biological research, I think. And I said, Well, so what would have to be reversed? And she said in the dream. And I said, Well, I'll leave it open. Whatever comes to mind. And she says, Well, I don't even know how to explain it, because obviously reversing the experiments wouldn't really do anything. And I said, Well, what do you feel has to be done differently or in an opposite way?

And she said, Well, that opens up a lot, I suppose. I mean, there is so much around the world that I feel needs to be done differently. How about stop dropping bombs on people, stop polluting the earth to name a few? There's so much going on all over the world that I feel should be done differently. I guess reversing it might work doing the opposite of what is being done. And there's some pretty bad stuff in my opinion. And I said, Well then it sounds like this is a dream for you and the world. Everyone has to get rid of what they've learned, meaning the way humans have been doing things is wrong.

We've been going the wrong way and we have to reverse course. And she said, All right. So then I also have to think about where I have to reverse course. And then she sat for a little while and I said, Well, what are your thoughts about the second dream? And she said, I felt like I could understand a little bit more why I had this dream. We've been planning a big birthday weekend for my dad. We're going to go sailing because he loves being out on the water. And then there's a really great seafood restaurant I think he will love. We're inviting two of his best friends and their wives, and my cousins are also going to come, so it would be a great group.

He doesn't know about it and we can't tell him. We think it should be a surprise because if we tell him he's going to come up with a reason to back out, he would find some type of work, commitment or something to try to get out of it. And I said, Why? And she said, I don't think I fully understand it, but it's like he just can't relax. He seems like he wants to be social, but maybe he's actually just shy and kind of hides that. So groups make him a little uncomfortable. At least that is my take on it. But then once he's there and able to relax, he does fine and then he'll talk about it for months afterwards.

I loved it. it was so much fun. Why don't we do it more often? And I just always shake my head because we're always trying to drag him to do those things, but he doesn't want to do it. Then he loves it. And I said, So how did you connect it to the dream? And she said, right. So he drives a silver BMW. So that made me think of him. And I was with my mom and sister planning this party. So it might have been connected to that. And also. Now it makes me wonder why are we in his car even though he isn't in the dream? And I said, Well, who who's driving his car?

Who's Robin? And she said, A good friend of mine from childhood. She's nice, but I kind of let the relationship drop because she was really rigid and it was hard to have a good time with her. Everything had to be so controlled and she always had to be right about everything. Maybe that's a little like my father. So I guess I can see now why she's driving. And I said, So what was illegal? Said, I have no idea what that was. I don't think it was just driving fast, though. I know it had something to do with it. And I said, Well, what team were you on?

She said, I think I had to go with the team in the car, but I don't know what that really meant. I remember the feeling of thinking I had to go along with what they were planning and just get into the backseat and go with them. I think that's where I see all these men shirts that have to go to the cleaners and it doesn't make sense to me like we're doing something illegal, but on the way we're going to drop shirts off at the cleaners. That sounds insane. And she said, I might have really cracked myself up thinking about it, too. I think my joke is so funny in the dream that I'm telling them, I would drive around with these shirts for so long and not realize it, and I don't know why I thought that was so hilarious, but it really cracked me up.

They seemed angry with me. Why am I laughing about this? Why am I making a joke right now? And she said, I know this joke isn't funny when I tell it to you, but trust me, it was really funny in the dream. And she said, I think I was laughing so hard. I was crying. And then they were. Maybe they were just angry with me for laughing so much. I'm not sure being silly. And I said, Well, the main thing you're telling me is that having fun for your father is thought to be illegal. It's a crime to be happy and enjoy your anticipating that he'll have fun on his birthday.

But First, he has to act like he doesn't want to go or he's too busy working. He's not supposed to just go and enjoy. And of course, you're being asked to get into his car, be him, and that has to all go to the cleaners as well. But the big idea is happiness is to be illegal. And here you are actually laughing and having fun in the dream. Very angry. Don't do that, she said. It's interesting because he always has to be forced to have fun. I always thought of my sister as the only one who could really let loose and have fun, like she was the designated fun person in the family and the rest of us were the serious ones.

I'd like to think I'm sort of in the middle of the two camps, and my father's always telling both of us, Go have fun. But he'll never do it himself. I'd like to think I'm a fun person, but I carry a lot of guilt about it. If I'm not studying or working hard at something, then I kind of beat myself up like I'm lazy or I should always be doing more, doing better. I feel like I'm always supposed to be pushing or I'm lazy. I'll be a disappointment. Maybe fun feels like something I have to earn versus something simple that I should be able to have automatically.

I think that might be part of what made me stop before applying to med school. I normally would have just gone ahead with it, kept following the path, but something was making me feel like I might not enjoy it, which would normally not be part of the calculus. Of course it's hard work and that's what you do. But something was pulling at me about this, and I don't know how to put it into words yet, but it's touching on something she said. I think I have to think about it. Why isn't he allowed to enjoy life? Why does he always have to be so serious?

And that's the end of the session. And I think unconsciously so many of us are right there. Right there, right there. I mean, we're not supposed to enjoy. Not supposed to enjoy. So that's really big. What she's saying is, look, the way we've all been going, everybody is living with an idea that we have to suffer. If you get an imprint and you give up your self to hold this imprint, you're suffering. Now, you may have completely denied you ever did that, but inherent in there is suffering. So she's really saying the dream. everybody, stop what you're doing.

Reverse course, unlearn everything. Do it the opposite way. Because what we have been caring, what we have been taught emotionally is wrong, is just wrong. You don't have to suffer. You don't have to be another person. Taking this imprint does nothing to help your mother or your father. It does nothing but split your personal polity and not let you be yourself. And on we go. On we go on we go same, same, same. And she says, All right. So these simple little dreams have such big implications. Stop everything you're doing. This isn't working. Reverse course.

It's precious that she said, Please share this. Did she also know that part of that was this universal message? I mean, what an incredible gift she's giving if we listen. It's a beautiful gift. No, I don't think it felt quite that way to her. I think she's concerned to do what I do. I'm trying to please my parents. What bigger. I'm listening to it and going, wow, what a beautiful dream for the world. Stop everything you're doing. Do it the opposite. Reverse. Right. Stop going to war. Start looking inside and figuring out how you're going to learn to love.

And she did speak to that, saying, I don't know, why do we have all these wars? What's happening with our climate? Yes. So I think it got her that way. I don't know if she realized the dream had such wide ranging implications, but yet it touched her. It pulled her in that direction. And that's what told me. Also, this is a dream for the world. Here's what she's talking about. And you hear a lot of those. I hear a lot of those. Yeah. There's a lot of people who, you know, unbeknownst to them most of the time, have all kinds of commentary about the way it isn't going.

Right. And that isn't just it didn't go right for them. Right. These are much bigger ideas about the ways we are doing bad stuff in the lab. We're not doing it right. We keep making it up. It's deadly. It's truly deadly. And if it doesn't actually kill us, it kills off our feelings and it keeps us from being able to connect to ourselves the way we're supposed to. And now we run amok. And how we run amok. You too. Disconnected from everything you're supposed to be connected to, Bail would add. Then it disconnects you from the divine. He would say that that's all part of this.

And if we can get this ship turned around and start just going that direction, looking inside, stop acting out there. We don't need another war. It hasn't fixed the world and I really don't. I don't want to sound like I am, you know, just completely out of touch of why people feel they need to do this. It's just that that hasn't worked. We've had so many wars. What does it do except just buy time until the next war so more mothers lose their children, more fathers lose their children. And what do they get? What did it really change? Yes, we may get short gains here, short gains there.

We don't get a big change that humanity needs. And this is all we will do. Which is obviously no more war. I mean, that would be ideal. I mean, has one war stopped us from having more war? That's the problem. One begets the next. So and then she brings in this nice other piece, which is it's illegal to have fun. Part of that has to do with her, her family. And am I going to go to med school? Am I going to be able to enjoy this? Right. I want to. I'm missing life has to be all fun. No, but it doesn't have to be all hard work. It doesn't all have to just be suffering.

And we all have a misconception that life is really about suffering. And even the sister who looks like she's free and gets to be out there what comes later, you don't hear it here. She you know, she touches on it a little bit. But what comes later is the sister is not free and it looks like it. And wouldn't it be nice? We wish. We wish. And then the dreams kind of say, no, She's living out a different part of the parents wishes. So again, not free. And the problem is not free to love, not free to love your life, yourself, what you're doing, and most importantly, each other.

The main goal is to protect that imprint, to survive, to suffer through, in order to save everything else except yourself. In a way. Yes, it is. You know, if we can think about it that inside we're all running this program. And my job is to save this woman who is my mother. So I will take any bit of trouble she had and I'll hold it. Now, I'm not me. Right. I've got to put some of me over here in order to have space for that right now. What if she has a whole lot of trouble? Then you have to put a whole lot of you over there, Right? So, you know, maybe we get this much of you, but maybe we only get this much of you right now.

How do you build a life and make good decisions if you're not in contact with your full self? How can you make the best decision? How can you be the most loving. And our full self? That thing which we hopefully can all uncover will always tell us the truth. We will know what love is. We will operate from. Good. That's the idea. Yes. That the more you get to know yourself, the bigger that part can grow. Right? You just feel your way through things better. It doesn't mean everything is easy, right? But easier if the idea isn't. I'm to suffer. But we've got.

You're carrying all of this historical trauma that's come down the line on both sides, but certainly the part that comes through the mother gets deposited into the child right at the the the bottom layer. Then dad's trauma gets sandwiched on top of that. So we've now got a new being that has already been hit with so much trauma. Now If the parents had enough love to soften that blow, that helps. Just generally, if we can be thinking about other people and behaving in a way that is loving, that helps. But this baby's already starting from a down position, so we have to undo all of that Now.

The dreams luckily come and say, All right, well, here's what you've got to do this. I mean, she said, you know, I just want you to tell me what to do. Well, her dreams do reverse course. Whatever you're doing, if you're going to be your father and probably your mother, don't undo, undo, undo, reverse B you use your dreams. Let's sort through them. Bring this in, and let's solve the problem where it started. So what happens with this wonderful young woman? She stays in treatment. She goes on with her life and figures out what she wants to do. Is she in med school?

She is, I'm protecting her identity a bit. But yes, she decided she decided to separate from her parents now. Maybe in ten years. Yeah. I mean, we'll have to see if she feels that. That following her dreams. Did that make sense to her? I think this was a woman who ultimately was interested in trying to solve some of these pieces. So I'm I'm curious. It'll be, you know, nice to see what is she what direction does she take this? And now she has a lot more knowledge about herself. She had to wait a little while. She didn't go right into school. She had to give this some time to attend to herself to figure it out.

But then suddenly, once she could sort of say, okay, wait a minute. Yes, that is their wish for me. But this also feels like a place where I can be myself. Then she didn't dread getting prepared for it, Right. You know, before she was time. I'm dreading it. I have to give up, you know, I have to give everything up to study, which is really saying is I have to give up me to do this. This is going to be awful. I don't think anybody thinks studying for the MCAT is fun, but I think she knew she was doing it for her. Big difference. And so did her dreams change?

You mean in the sense that they were showing her that this was an okay path? Yes. Yes. She got some messages that she was heading the right way, but she still continues to dream for the world. I think this is just a person who tends to do that. I'm very grateful to her. I think I am, too. I am, too. She brought very important messages for us to all think about. That's awesome. I think there's a lot to think about, either thinking of this as a parent and what one is going through with their own children, or as an individual who's struggling with whatever they took on because of their parents from both ends of the spectrum.

Right. And I think very importantly, that feeling of being lost, I think sometimes we do normalize it too much in the sense that, yes, there is a developmental phase where you are figuring out who you are. But I think there's also a commentary that too many of us are lost and we're lost because we're disconnect acted from our feelings selves. And that's huge. And that, you know, is part of the big problem. So had this woman and I'm not even sure how this would happen not had this existence that was very early on dictated by saving her parents and therefore saving herself when it came to going to med school or not, she might have seen that red flag and said wait, this doesn't feel like me.

And if it doesn't feel like me, I've got to do something about it. Because I think a lot of us are just rote. We just what we don't feel. Yes, right. If we get disconnected, we don't have access to our feelings. And it's not that she's a robot, but we don't have access to them in the way where they can be helpful to us in these critical moments. We don't recognize. Let me connect to myself and sort of see, do I want to do this or is this dad's wish. And why am I feeling uncomfortable? Lauren my gosh. This is just beyond beyond. It's amazingly helpful.

And you're coming back and we're going to you are going to share more dreams with another patient soon. Yeah. And I so look forward to it. It's a crazy helpful I thank you a million times over. Thank you for having me. And thank you again to all the patients that are, you know, willing to share their dreams and and share these kinds of messages. And thank you for having me back. Yes. Giant gifts all the way around. Thank you. Listeners and watchers come back again soon. And as always, we love to know what you think. Bye for now.