The Hidden Trauma Within: Dream Analysis and Exploration | A Case Study with Dr. Loren Weiner

Transcript auto-generated from the episode audio; formatting has been cleaned up, but wording is verbatim.

Hi, I'm Cynthia Marks. I head up the Holistic Psychoanalysis Foundation established by my late husband, Dr. Bernard Bail. Welcome to And Now Love. And welcome to Dr. Loren Weiner. Hi. Hi. We're here to follow up on dreams you shared with us. Two dreams that your patient, Jessica, had. And that was amazing. Kind of a cliffhanger. And we've got two more to talk about. We do. So how? I'll get into it. I want to say that these are dreams that come later in the treatment, and by later, I mean years. So some people may be shocked by that. What, it takes this long?

It does. Some of what we're doing here is we're going deep into her personality. We are looking at all of the things that are sitting in the unconscious, and it takes time. So I don't want people to come away from this thinking, okay, for sessions you're in, you get to the deepest roots and you're out pretty quickly and that's how it goes. So what happens in that five years, right? Five years. That sounds good. That's a good start. Gosh, because what's happening is you may turn up this information, you may discover it in a dream, but then the person has to really digested and live with it, see what it's like.

Where does that person notice those dynamics showing in their own life and work with it? And then you get all kinds of things that may be resistance, Meaning you get a glimpse of something, you know it, you learn it, and maybe it goes away for a while and you have to bump up against it again and keep working with it, keep working it through in all sorts of ways. It may show itself in the treatment, in the relationship, meaning between myself and the patient and things come up. And that's always a super delicate dynamic, right? It is. And it's expected, we expect.

And that's the set up of a treatment is actually so that that does occur. We want that. We expect it because if it's occurring with me and we can find it, talk about it, understand it, that means that person can take that into the world. And we know those same things are going to be happening with every person in your life. But at least with you, then it's almost as if a safe space has been established, maybe even just unconsciously, where the patient can express whatever feelings they have, negative or positive, that they think might be about your relationship, but might not, that they can't experiment with outside of the relationship quite yet.

Hopefully that's the idea that people feel free enough to say what's on their mind that that is at some point absolutely going to include some upset with me, some complaint. And sometimes they're very valid, you know, and sometimes you have to just look at that. And sometimes it's part of the transference, or it could be both. And so you're looking because if we look at Jessica, one of the things that came out is the brother would say things that weren't very nice. Yes. So I am thinking, okay, at some point she may experience what I say is not very nice because this is part of her life experience.

And the brother shut her down and she might experiment with that with you and see if she gets shut down. I guess. Absolutely. And all of the characters and all of the ways she's related in her life will make an appearance. And that is one of the things where the experience with her brother, where she sort of called him out a little bit, was new to her, and she came to that via her dreams and the interpretation with you, the collaboration with you. Right. Wasn't she's sort of like stepping out of her normal zone. Yes, absolutely. And so hopefully also in the treatment she can step out of her natural zone and begin to say things, begin to see things and you want it going on.

You're going to expect it goes on in the treatment and eventually that it makes its way out into her life, that the whole idea is that this gets taken back into your life and worked with. So for me, it was super great that she took that chance with her brother, right? Even though it didn't go how she would have ideally liked to have gone. But she spoke up. She did something that was out of her world. So life experience then is is part of the treatment. So your dreams open up these little avenues where maybe you're more comfortable to experiment with something or you're saying, wait a minute, that never felt right.

Yes. And one thing that's important is, of course, I could say to her, we'll just speak up. I could have said that in the first five sessions. Perhaps what you don't get if you just say that is an emotional maturity or an understanding and growth that let her just speak up because it originates in her. She has to begin to grow of feeling that she's allowed entitled to talk. I can tell her, but it doesn't change her. It isn't a feeling that she has. It's more of a command from you. That's right. Yeah. There's a big difference. Right then she knows it up here. right.

I'm supposed to be able to talk, but what do we do with all the feelings that still say I can't do it? So it may look slower to have her go through all the dreams, all the discussions, all of the back and forth to help her change her deepest self, to feel, I can say something I'm allowed. She has to have that feeling. That's the change. Otherwise it's all intellectual and it doesn't change her feeling herself. So I'm glad you started talking about that, because you must have intuited where we were going next in the next dream. So I'm going to get into this session.

I may interrupt you with a question or two. Interrupt away way. Okay. Okay. As I said, we are years later. I want people to really get that idea and that this is years working on it. We're not just working once a week. So I know a lot of people think once a week is a good amount for those of us who are working with people every day, once a week is not a lot. That's just the reality of it. The mind is very easy at once a week to sort of say, I hear you and I can forget you. Yes. For a long time and come back and we'll touch on it again and then I can forget you.

So I just think people have to understand that it doesn't mean you can't do it. It just means it's slower. Yeah. I wonder sometimes if you're on a once a week type of schedule, you really let it go. Like, boy, that was a lot. We talked about a lot. And then you, you do, you forget about it. And maybe your sessions on Friday and Thursday evening, you're like, my gosh, I got to scramble. I got to get back into that mode. And you've wasted all this time not really absorbing. We're talking to people about how to be able to learn more about themselves on their own, too.

And I don't know how we relate these two things well enough because we really need you, someone like you, to take us through this in this most exquisite way. And without you we can touch on it. We can create this giant curiosity of you. We can look at our dreams. I know we talked about this before, but it's much harder to get anywhere. It is. But I would say the same thing. Don't ignore yourself all week. Yeah. So in a way, if you're really looking, then you're paying attention as often as you can. And don't ignore your true self ever. I mean, do whatever you can to realize.

Yet the real you is in there, whatever you need to do. Yes, if you can do that and I look, I know it's not ideal. It does help to have someone working with you and maybe there are lots of therapists out there who felt similarly to Dr. Bail. One of the things he talks about is really hitting a wall, getting very depressed and saying, you know, I don't feel like I'm getting to a place with my patients that I imagine I can get. I don't feel they're changing the way I want them to. I am unfulfilled. There's something more. There's something more. And so there may be other therapies that are out there if they're listening and saying, you know, this also speaks to me.

I felt similarly, how do I get to a deeper place with my patients? And look, this doesn't mean this is overnight they're changing, but that the understanding about yourself gets to deepen in a way when you are talking to yourself. So it would we need more therapists doing this kind of work to we. Do whatever we're doing, we're creating some sort of interest in where it's just going to spiral. Let's let's hope. Okay, let's go. Okay. On this day, the patient comes in and she says, I'm just exhausted. I feel like I have been just wanting to climb in bed and pull the covers up.

It's rough. I think I'm just going through a lot. There's been so much on my mind. I'm trying to get myself back to feel better, really, just to have more energy. But it isn't happening right now. And I think I'm coming down with something. I think maybe a sore throat, but not horrible. I'm just not my best. And to top it off, I got into it again with my family. I know I shouldn't go there. I should have just shut up. But I had to say something. I told my brother he was abusive, verbally abusive, Any kind of hurt me. Well, maybe. But then I felt like I had just done the worst thing.

I felt guilty and like I was the bad one when I know it was fine. He had it coming and he was again, just being rude. Rude comments, not funny, even though he thought it was. I just told him he needed to think about why he was always acting that way. Wow. Like take a look at yourself. And is this really how you want to be? You hurt people and I don't really think that is you deep down. So I tell him all this and he's quiet and he's taking it in, but I kind of feel like he got angry and I felt like I should just shut up. But he didn't say it. I said, It's interesting that you may have a sore throat then.

And she said, Yeah. I thought maybe I got a sore throat because I felt like I should just shut up because he didn't want me to talk. And maybe I. I felt that a lot. I think it just took it out of me. It's amazing how feeling something creates this physical reaction. That happens a lot. We'll see it and we can connect it. Sometimes people will say, I had an interaction with someone. They were so cold. And sure enough, a few days later the patient comes down with a cold. So the body and the mind are very connected and we feel things and sometimes if it's too much for our mind, it jumps over into the body.

And is it the intellectual part of us that doesn't want to recognize those things? I feel like sometimes we might feel that makes us seem weak, you know? my gosh, I was feeling this way and now I feel sick. No, it doesn't have anything to do with that. I'm sick because I was with all those little kids at school and I caught their cold. It may be you have to you have to listen to what the story is, what happened, what was going on in your life. And hopefully you can discern. Sometimes you can't, but hopefully you can discern. Right. You actually had a feeling there.

And sometimes it's not that you aren't feeling, it's just that it was too much. And so the mind can only hold so much and then it jumps over into the body. So it's a really good thing to sort of sit with that and say, okay, why do I have this sore throat now? Yes, what's going on? And people have written about this, you know, that you'll get bladder infections, you may get a backache, You know, your shoulders hurt. What are you carrying? We understand that this happens. And so he or she is. And there was an awful lot of pressure on her. She fought it.

She said something, and then you see what happens, right? So inside of her, she has to feel awful. She feels she shouldn't have said anything. She's supposed to just shut up and then she's tired. So tired. And this happens in a treatment as well. People should know. It's sometimes you really feel it. You're working hard. And that doesn't mean life. A party in that moment, you may be working hard and you're exhausted because you're fighting something the same way. When you say I'm fighting a flu or something, you're tired, you take to bed, you might actually need the rest, right?

It doesn't mean that that's pathologic call. It may mean, yes, this is part of mounting a fight against something. I think Dr. Bail used to say that basically all illness would stem from the mother's imprint. He felt that that all illness originated in the emotions, that that's really the place where it all starts. And whatever trouble we can't metabolize gets shunted over to the neighbor and the body's the neighbor. And so, yes, sometimes you will see dreams where there is mention of an illness. In fact, very early on that it was laid down very early on.

But this is not uncommon that a lot of times we just can't handle everything that comes at us emotionally and a lot comes at us. It doesn't let us be our strongest self. And then you're out somewhere, you know, you get hit by something, you may be okay, but then you're out somewhere. And of course, your immune system is not its strongest because you've. You're already on tilt. Yes, exactly. So he felt that was the origin of all illness. It's how people can can think about that a little bit, see, see if that makes sense to them. So when you're emotionally overwhelmed and even unknowingly, that has to spill somewhere.

Absolutely. And who amongst us isn't emotionally overwhelmed right at the time, if not all the time? We all are. So no wonder our immune system isn't working the best that it could. I'm going to go back to this. So she has that connection. right. Of course. I am not supposed to be talking. We can also link that back, even though several years later we can link that back. If you think about that dream with the choker. Yeah, right on the throat. So this is a big theme. Am I really allowed to speak? And so she says she had a dream. This is the dream.

I'm in the city where I was born on the East Coast. I'm with my mom and my oldest cousin on that side of the family. I think there's a big storm coming or very strong winds. One of my other friends is there and he's a big drinker. We are all at a table. And I think my friend misunderstands something I say and well, it's clear he didn't hear me correctly. He comes over to me and tips a wine bottle into my mouth. I'm very upset by it, but I refuse to swallow any of it. I shut my mouth and plan to spit it all back at him. And that's the dream you can imagine.

You hear this dream? You've heard the beginning of the session, and then this is the dream. So you have to start thinking about it. All right. Where did her mind go with this, given this was the main thing on her mind that she started to tell me about? I don't feel good. and I said something. I finally sore. Throat. And I have a sore throat and I felt terrible. And now somebody is trying to put something in her mouth. Right? At least you can build a hypothesis. All right, so what does this have to do with it? So she starts to associate, meaning she starts to tell me her thoughts.

She knows how to do this at this point, which is I want to hear what is she think about each part of the dream? What stands out to her, What comes to her mind, And this much as she can just let her mind go, not worry about censoring it, just see what comes. What do you imagine? So she says, Well, I clearly this has to do with the other night with my brother. So that felt that way to her. Now, just because someone says that to me, I, of course, have to still question it. Right. But if she tells me that and that's coming from her and we've been doing this this long, I'm inclined to say, okay, that makes Sally it.

Right? And she thought about it some more and she was quiet. She said, I have a feeling my friend might really be my brother. They actually look similar now that I'm telling you about it. They're both really tall and have green eyes. I didn't realize it as much when I woke up, but when I tell you, it's so clearly about that. I know I had other dreams where the wine was supposed to put me to sleep or keep me from knowing the truth of my life. So here it is again. This time it seems like it's meant to choke me or at least stop me from talking. So she's had many dreams where wine, the family drinks wine.

So that's what shows up that she's meant to drink it. She's meant to drink so much, she goes to sleep. She's so much that she gets little loopy that she can't quite remember what happened. And this is the way she tells her story. She's taken something that's very prevalent in the family and her dreams, her unconscious, uses it over and over as a symbol to tell the story. And what she's saying is, I'm not supposed to talk. Nobody wants to hear what I have to say. I won't. I just have a glass of wine and shut up. Maybe I'll have so much wine I'll pass out.

If I'm passed out. Great. I even. Better. Even better. No chance. I'll talk. No chance. I'll say anything. And it's not so much that. Yes, the brother is on her a lot. And we we get that. But the reality is, in this family, you wouldn't know this if you came to dinner at their house. You wouldn't think, they keep shushing the middle child. No, she's talking just as much as anybody else. A lot of the time it's that unconsciously the message was, don't. And I want to make that distinction. It's such a big deal. These people say, well, my family's not like that.

Nobody was telling me to be quiet. In fact, maybe people were even encouraging me to talk or would ask my opinion on certain things. But it's that unconsciously. And that's why we need the dream in the family. There was so much pressure that the women don't really say anything of substance. They can talk about all sorts of unimportant things, but if they start pointing out the dynamics in the family or something they don't like or something they feel isn't being done the right way, she wants you quiet. So she hasn't been able to really be her true self.

Like you're saying. Appearances are such that everything seems great. It's normal. They all talk and banter, but unconsciously there's some control over that. There's a lot of control over that. And is that the internal saboteur? It is what was set up in the family as the dynamic. Now when she obeys it, often it may be the internal saboteur, but she's going to obey because all babies, children obey in the family even when they look rebellious a lot of times. I mean, if they're rebellious, sometimes that can be a good thing. But oftentimes when we get to the dreams, when we get down to the basement, what we see is that everybody is following orders.

So if the messages don't say that much, and we saw in the second dream of the first discussion that she was also not supposed to count, that the mother didn't really count, she was a zero. Yeah. So this is also a woman who has to walk in her mother's shoes in a way, be her mother. Right? It isn't just an identification with her mother. I do it like her. It is really that as a baby, we all have to both take in an imprint. So we're not our true self. And we also have to be calm. The mother and the father. So you become the mother because it's your job to make sure that this woman, your mother lives.

She survives all of her internal upset. Otherwise you don't get to exist. Well, your fear is you won't make it. Yeah, right. So, you know, if mother is too depressed, upset, too much of a zero, how much can a zero take care of you? And this is all in the unconscious. This is all in the unconscious. I start with the mother because the baby starts inside the mother. But we will often be one or both of the parents, sometimes a sibling. We take on parts of people. So one of the big questions when people are talking to me about their lives, if I hear something sometimes I'll ask, What?

Where did you learn that? Or who does that? Does anybody do that? Anybody else in the family? I try not to have it be a leading question, but after a while people get the hang of it and we're all then you can be looking and this is something people can do at home. You don't have to be in a therapy to do this, which is start paying attention to yourself. You notice you do things like your parents. Everybody says, I didn't want to be like my mom, but here I am. And I'm say, okay, well, try to catch yourself there. wait a minute, but am I being my mom?

I didn't want to, but am I? She always says this. She only does it this way. And now I only do it this way. Or I get angry about the same things. And I say exactly what she said. You know, sometimes you don't even realize you're doing it, but you have to see. That's great. And then I think that just opens doorways to other questions. And when you start to recognize those things or those feelings and a little light goes off in your head, then you're sort of intrigued or curious about discovering more. And look at Jessica. She, after all these years, recognize that this friend was so much like her brother in terms of his appearance and then a ha in my dream.

Maybe that is my brother. Right? So she could put that together quickly. Now, even she says when she woke up, thought about her dream, wrote down her dream so that she could later tell me about it. It didn't occur to her. It only occurred as she was telling me about it. So she was thinking about it again. this starts to pop out to me. I wonder if that could be that person. Often a lot of the people people get very focused on, I brought in this strange person I haven't dreamt about in years and they're wondering, does that mean the person's going to call me?

Should I call that person? And occasionally somebody pops up from the past and, you know, people have an intuition about it, but most of the time they're symbolic of somebody else in the family. And that's really what you're dreaming about. You know, most of the time we're dreaming about our life and what's going on with it. And so, you know, yes, if you bring somebody from your past into a dream and you haven't thought about the person a long time, you have to start asking yourself, what does that person mean to me? What's that person like? What's their personality?

Do I like them? What's the feeling I get when I'm talking to this person? And in that way you can start figuring out at least parts. You may not get the whole picture of the dream. You might, but at least you can start to figure out some pieces. that's interesting. I but you know what, though? If I really boil it down, that person is just like my mom or that person is like my husband. And then, believe it or not, a lot of times we have to go, Well, let's figure out who your husband is. Amazing. That's an interesting topic right there. That is an interesting topic.

We can talk about that too. Okay, so you could almost go down a checklist. This friend, tall, green eyes. What about him? Do I know? Did he make me laugh? Was I intimidated? Was I frightened? Did I love his company? And you could see how you feel about each of those statements. Yeah. And then think about. Okay, I get it. Yeah. I always felt like I shouldn't. I have to be careful what I say around this person. Who else makes me feel like that? You probably get more proficient at it, but you're just thinking, yeah, When I think of him, what do I think of?

And if you can let yourself now, sometimes in the beginning, you know, you don't know where to go with it, so you're wondering what is it about this? And you can get in the weeds pretty quickly. So I would say if you can stick with the big picture there a lot of times. What does it feel like to be with this person? Was I always sort of going like, yeah, I like him, But, you know, I know he has a temper. Right? Right. And if that's one of the first thing that comes out. All right. Well, what about that? Does that ever mean who is it? Who has a temper?

And that's going to lead her back to her family, which is where she needs to be, because that is where the prohibitions got started. They didn't start with this friend. Right? Right. A friend represents something. He was much later in the game. He had nothing to do with this getting laid down. Yeah. All the trash was already there. That was already there, though you may later find friends that will keep you in the same position. She could very easily find a bunch of friends or a boyfriend or whatever it is who would like her to be quiet and that'll be really comfortable.

And she'll like these people. She may not always love the situation. But that's what she knows. That's what she knows. Isn't that what we typically do? Yeah. We go to the thing that makes us feel comfortable. Whether that comfortable is a happy or sad or good or bad place. That's what, you know, we. Go to the place that doesn't make us break the rule. We're always trying to not break the rule. That's where the internal saboteur comes in. That internal saboteur doesn't want you to break the rule. Don't rock the boat. So only find people where you're not rocking the boat.

So in the internal saboteur, also part of your unconscious is that part of you who's just too afraid to uncover the truth because it's just too big? It just blows everything up. You can think of it like a security guard. The job of the internal saboteur is to keep you from touching your imprint so it stands guard. So if her imprint in some way is be quiet, anything she does that pushes on that she starts speaking her mind a little too much. The internal saboteur, the security guard, because you are going to figure out there's an imprint here and you're going to break it.

And we can't have that that is deadly because that will put you back in touch with the original pain of getting your imprint. We get an imprint. It is incredibly painful to the psyche bail felt. You actually felt it like a physical pain, though it is an emotional pain that splits the mind. And of course, this is ongoing. I mean, we're always going to be dealing with the imprint and the security guard. Yeah, you're. Not going to be dealing with it at the same intensity as you are at the beginning or even the middle. Right. And it will ebb and flow and you may bump into it when something really gets stirred up.

But you know enough about yourself and then you have a little discussion with yourself and okay, I think I know what I'm in. The middle of in it and it's not as frightening. You can open the door rather than slam the door shut. Yes, you can. You can begin to think about it. So we have all of this going on. So she is basically able to put together that the friend in the dream is really a symbol for the brother and that this dream is a direct result of the conversation she has the night before and that she is going to be choked with a wine bottle.

And she says, okay, I've had dreams that have talked about this before. I know this territory now. We've been over this. I know it. I don't feel as comfortable with it, so comfortable with it that I am not going to dream It is. I'm still dreaming it. I am still having a dream where I am told to shut up. But at least now she knows the territory and that's a big deal. Is that on some level frustrating for her? She keeps dreaming the same thing. Does she feel like she should now stop dreaming that because she's kind of getting the picture for her?

I think yes. Sometimes that's frustrating. It wasn't in this session, but yes, sometimes it is. And I think for people, my gosh, what? Why am I still dreaming the same thing? And that's another important thing to know. We humans don't change quickly. And part of the reason we don't, especially with something like this, is that originally this was life or death. Her marching orders where you don't speak your mind. So if you're going to fight against that, right, you're going to rebel somewhere deep down there is a part of you saying, But this is life or death.

No, we're not rebelling. So she's got to fight herself. And that at the end of the day, that is really what her treatment is about, is discovering what you are having to obey, what rules, what imprints, where you give in. And now how do you start to fight. But you have to know what they are. You don't know what you're fighting. So she knows this now. That's why I say she knows the territory. The territory for her is she. Don't say anything. Nobody wants to hear from you. She's lucky that externally, in her waking life, she didn't turn to wine all the time.

She's very lucky that that just wasn't where she went with it, because one could very easily see how you might drink. Right? Because that would really fulfill the purpose. It really would. So she got lucky. But I think that that gives people a way to start to also think about that. What were you not supposed to know? Why are you to be in this state? I would couple that with if you have a parent who drinks or uses or is an addict in some way or does anything, you may also do it because you had to become that parent also. So in the way you had to take care of your parents and make sure they survived so that you survived.

You take them in, you become them. So you may have two forces working on you when it comes to addiction or something like that, which is you may be part of a parent who does it. And there may be lots of messages that came at you that you were not to know all kinds of things. And what's an easy way to not know? You get yourself high on something. You get yourself out of your own mind enough and you're no threat. And then even outside of your feelings, just environmentally or intellectually, that's what you see and know it's acceptable. And so you perhaps partake.

Is that separate from the imprint? If you grow up in a house where. Right. It's all part of it, but I might say there's there's going to be the deepest unconscious piece and then we're going to have the layers up. I think living in the house with people, it's a little hard to tease out and say, well, this is just what you see people doing because they're doing that and it comes with an unconscious piece. So it isn't alone. But yes, one might say that that's the uppermost layer, right, is yeah, this is how I saw everybody do it. But they were also all communicating unconscious early the whole time.

I see. And they came with their own imprint, which was I'm not to have a voice or I'm not to feel my feelings. Or I'm not supposed to know what's going on. I'm not really supposed to be successful. I'm not allowed to have whatever life one may have wanted or imagined and drinking, using you name it, whatever it is doing all kinds of dangerous things, maybe even being suicidal. Right. And battling that may all be in the service of this imprint. And it may look like it's all kinds of other things. And really, we want to get down to the base of what?

Why aren't you supposed to be here? In what way? Because imprints are specific, though. They're simple. So somebody may be suicidal versus us actively using alcohol all the time, even though they both may have some type of I'm not to be here message. It's going to be very specific. And that's why you get different responses and the people have different lives. And this all stems from trauma early on in the womb. But we're not able as infants, babies, children to access any of this. And so we're walking this path that isn't ours until well into adulthood.

Well, we're always walking it. That's the idea. Nobody knows. I mean, very few people really have gotten to know about this. That's why it's so important to share that all of this is going on. And there are reasons. It isn't just, this is who I am, and we are all traumatized. And I say that in all seriousness, that people really need to understand and that even most of the time when it looks okay, if you dig into it, the dreams will say, but I'm not okay. And it may not be as severe. Obviously we're looking at things on a continuum, but the dreams really reveal how wounded, how hurt and how disconnected from our true selves we all are.

And I think that's a really important message for people to understand. We all like to sort of say, well, but it wasn't that bad or you know, that I'm okay, or This is all right. And we live we live in a world where we accept enormous traumas as though we have to accept this. Why do we have to accept a war? Why? but this is how it's always been. Why does that mean we have to accept this? What good have we seen come from this ever? Has it really made things that much better? It's surprising we haven't imploded already. So we don't have to accept things, but we have to accept it.

If we've accepted an imprint and we all had to accept that. So that lays the foundation for why we just accept things. And look at what we accept about women's place in the world. Well, and this is why this will all continue. We accept our position, the world. We accept that women are allowed to be told and made into a zero. As my patient stream says, you get to be a zero like your mother. That's what you're given. Tragic, tragic. And this is happening to most women all over the place, all over the world. And so they have to get anywhere first, have to fight something inside the system.

We don't think of you as a first class citizen. But women have come to accept that they're not often. Yes. Unfortunately. Yeah. So we think, okay, we're fighting, but the base assumption is wrong. I, I Why do I even have to fight this? There should be no fight. This is not a question. Why did I accept this? Why are we accepting this. Guy off track again? Okay, but I like to get off track on those topics. So she knows that this is now connected to the family and this is about her being quiet and we are back in that territory. She next says to me, I think that when I was little I had no choice about drinking the wine.

Now, not really drinking the wine emotionally drinking the wine. But now in this dream, I feel like I can't stop him from doing it for some reason in the dream. But I don't have to actually drink the wine. I wake up before I can spit it back at him. Maybe that was too much for me to actually do without waking myself up, but I was pretty angry about it. My mom is there in the dream and doesn't say anything, so the patient neglected to tell me about the mother when she told me the dream. And we're having a whole discussion, right? We're three quarters of the way through a session.

I don't hear anything about the mother. And then there she is. And there she is in an association. She only comes in because she starts to tell me more of a story. Why doesn't the mother show up? And that's the big question to the patient, even as you hear the answer. It's interesting. She says, Well, I think her cousin is there and she's one of the better ones. So even then it's a little a little slippery around. But why is in the mother there? What does she mean by she's one of the better ones. Meaning she's one of the people in the family who will talk more about the truth of what went on in the family, more about the feelings.

But still, none of them really want to get into feelings. I mean, they might complain about things in their lives, but they just don't really want to know how you're doing. Keep it all light and fine. Don't share anything you're upset about. Nobody wants to hear it. So back and forth, we have a discussion. And what I said to her was, so she never learned how to handle her feelings. So then she can't help you with yours. She just does. Status quo. This is how we did it in my family. This is how I'll do it with you. She doesn't know how to do this.

She doesn't know how. She doesn't know in her mind. Right. It doesn't feel abnormal. It isn't, though. She's sitting there saying, keep it light. This is all unconscious. She just does. She just naturally doesn't go there. Well, and we all do that, I guess, to some degree. When someone says, how are you? Do you ever say you got a few minutes? Right. We don't we don't really mean it right. That's that's just in passing. So then she says, I think my brother is just like my mother's father. He can joke around and be very cutting to. I was thinking about that, like, why is he that way?

And what does he really think he's doing when he treats people that way? And why have my parents let him be that way? This isn't the first time she's asking these questions, but we have to come back to things a lot. Yeah, this is one of those pieces. I feel like we talked about this in the first dream, right? Do they even recognize that their son is, in this way disturbing? I mean, their imprints would allow him to be that way, and somehow that is what is comfortable. Even though they comfortable they. Know because he turns it on them. I don't know that they would be as bothered if it was solely on the other two kids, but he turns it on them as well so nobody gets away from it, but they don't stop it.

Maybe a little comment here, though. That's not nice. Yeah, they make a show of stopping it. I said they don't really stop it. Nobody really sits down and has a talk with this guys. What in the world is going on? Yeah. You know, what's up. Well, I said if you if you connect that to your mother's father, then that's probably why Mom kept her father close and doesn't tell him how to behave, because kids don't usually get to tell the parents how to behave. So she says, All right, he's really my grandfather. The brother had to take on the role where the personality of the grandfather there, that's what the mother brought to that child.

So he doesn't get to be himself. We don't know what the brother would be like, but now he's a repeat. Now not identical twin. They're not exactly the same, but he's got enough of the flavor of how the mother's father was that she's comfortable and, comfortably comfortable, and the other two kids get to have her experience. So that repeats as well, right? We get to just see that this is just over and over in every direction, all kinds of repetition, every way that people are not really allowed to be themselves. And they have to take on all of these different roles.

So sometimes he's the grandfather because the mother needed that in some way. We're bring these things in because we need it in some way. And that grandfather was part of the mother's imprint, part of her upbringing. Part of her experience, where she wasn't allowed to say anything and where she was a zero. So the brother now embodies the part that doesn't let anybody say anything that. Shut her down. That shut her down. And so when she was carrying the brother in her womb, she was transferring that bit to him. Boy, it's complicated. It is when you first start jumping into it, but you just have to keep in mind that all of the major players in your life are going to repeat and we're just going to be looking for them and they're going to find their way into your children.

So you have to look and your people say, he gets that. We know that comes from the father's side or the mother's side. People have been saying that. Right, Right. I mean, we say. That more than just with the red. Hair. That's right. We say it about eye color and hair color and and also. But you hear it right. He's got a temperament like him or he's just like him. I think if people start paying attention, you realize, wait, this is going on everywhere and you can find it. It's not actually that mysterious. Yeah, I know. We keep it so surfaces like, that's why he's so funny.

Exactly. But maybe. Another thing. Exactly. I say that. So this is what's happening here, that the mother is allowing this because this is what she grew up with. And she wasn't allowed to tell the father. No, she wasn't allowed to say, Dad, enough. Shut up. Don't talk to me that way. I deserve better. Don't talk to Mom that way. She deserves better. Wouldn't be great if kids could say those things. And sometimes they do. Just the outcome isn't always that good. But you know, you'll hear little kids and sometimes they say, Shut up, mommy. That's right.

And then that's not very well received. It's never. Well received. They're rude. And sometimes they're pushing a limit and sometimes you trespassed. Sometimes you have to look and say, Well, why did that little one respond that way? Yeah. And sometimes you owe the kid an apology. Not always. But. Sometimes. Sometimes you do. Or sometimes their child has been given the message, whether overtly or covertly, to shut up and the child is now going to reflect to you too much. Right? I've been told this so much, it is now bursting out of me. So I will tell you now, Mommy, shut up, because this is what I'm now having to listen to in my mind all the time.

And sometimes it's just plainly in the home people that's how people are talking to each other. That's how they're talking to the child. So we're also we're keeping all of these layers in mind. And it sounds overwhelming and confusing at first, but it isn't. You just have to start being very organized about the way you start looking at the environment and who's saying what, how is it going and where did all of this come from? And you can start to see how the layers affect each other or overlap or overlap. That's right. So I say this about mom with her father and then she says, and he used to act like my brother all the time, probably much worse.

This she's speaking about her grandfather. I think he was really a piece of work. My mother doesn't say a lot about it. I don't know if she tries to protect us from it or doesn't realize how bad it really was. Her sister, my aunt, is the exception and is willing to say more. She is more connected to her feelings, and I learn more about how the family was from her. But my sense is that none of the kids ever talked back to the father, and I don't think he was ever looking to know whether they had any complain. It's that just wasn't even a consideration.

He just said whatever he wanted and ran things the way he wanted. That was that. So we start to see that the brother is connected to the maternal grandfather who was allowed to just do whatever he wanted as the brother does so. And I ask her, So why does why does your father let it happen? What do you think? And she said, That's interesting, too. And she thinks but she says, I think his father was not all that different either. Very cold cut off from his feelings. He probably had the bigger temper. Like maybe in the dream. It kind of reminds me of the few bad stories I heard about that grandfather.

He could snap. So I said, Sure, you get it on both sides. And you can see why the mom and dad came together. You can see why the mom and dad came together. They would understand that know each other that's familiar in the in the best scenario, they might help each other with it. But typically what is you know, it just gets repeated. They just live with it. Well, you don't know. There's something to help. That's right. You don't. So we were talking about how her parents would have felt this way unconsciously, that they both carrying their fathers, their mothers, too, but their fathers and the mothers that didn't stop the fathers because they didn't feel they were supposed to have the power.

So both parents have inside of them their own set of parents, one that can snap or be cold or rude or demanding, and one that doesn't feel entitled, worth enough to stop and say, no. That must take a while to get to, because I would imagine you could initially look at that sort of more overt thing. This man was so controlling, was all about whatever he wanted. And my mom, she was so nice and it's harder to kind of look at the mom and go, Well, wait a minute, you don't have to take this. Right? And you have to see how people feel about that. And sometimes it takes a while for us to get to truthfully talk about, well, wait a minute.

Mom didn't feel she was allowed to say anything. And yes, may have been a victim or not. Mom may have colluded in certain ways. Mom may have just felt like she was such a zero. How she can't possibly say. Mom may have been terrified she'd be left. And how was she going to take care of three kids with one salary? So all of the problems people think about. But we have to see that each person is caring inside that relationship. And it laid down a certain way of being how it's going to echo the imprint in a lot of ways. So if it didn't even enter into that mother's mind that she had a foot to stand on, the thought didn't cross her mind that would be transferred also then.

Yes, that might be transferred in Lot of times what happens is maybe somebody doesn't think about it that way, but they should know. They get angry, right? They know they get depressed. You may start to get all kinds of things. You may get some depression in the person sitting in front of you that. You can see. The outcome stems from the person's own life and also will find its way back. What what do you do when you've got a mother who felt care? I am. I'm a zero. I've got to take this. I don't want to. What do I do? She's going to have a feeling about that.

So we're always looking at the full picture. We're looking at the unconscious of both parents, and that's always finding its way into the dreams of the patient. We're looking to see who the patient has to be at any given moment. Are you the mother? Are you the father? Who are you responding like? Are you a grandparent? Who are you and what are you allowed? Do say, be, feel, talk about. And in many, many ways, millions of ways. How does it get interrupted? And we have to go and this is why takes years. It isn't that we don't often we can get big ideas.

It's that we're trying to change the base functioning. We're trying to build a place where you don't have to be your mother every time you feel anxious, every time you do anything. Because sometimes there is so much of a parent there that there's almost no patient sitting in front of you. Believe it or not, that person almost doesn't exist because there was so little room for that person. And that's kind of an interesting idea. So it may take a long time, depending on what the dream show you, to get to a place where you get a foothold, you get enough space for that person to start to speak, come back to life, feel things, take a look at the world through his or her own eyes.

I can imagine It's it's like trying to catch a little fly with chopsticks I mean, I can't figure out how you would even catch on to that dreams. You build it through dream by dream and the dreams will show you the person will speak and say, Here's what happened to me Hidden in the closet. I'm buried under this. I dissolved into a little grain of sand. Now I don't want to scare people. my God. I'm not going to therapy. I'm going to find out. I'm not even a real human being. What are you talking about? Most of the time, if that's going on, you already know it.

You feel it. You're coming into my office because you don't feel good. In your life. You may have no clue, but you know, you don't want to feel like this. Exactly. So I want people to know it isn't most of the time. I mean, yes, people may be a little shocked to say, wait, you don't even feel I'm a real person, but that is not going to shock you. You know, your life isn't going the way it should be going. So I don't want to scare people. Right. You're going to come into my office. Go. Please help me feel better. I'm going to say, okay, well, let me show you why you're not feeling good in the first place.

And here is how we can start to help you feel better. And I don't want to sugarcoat it. It's work and it is not fast. And you have to go over things, right? We got a sense that she already knew the brother was connected to a parent very early on and then it gets forgotten or lost or we're back to it or we're going to deepen it. And a lot of times we're deepening it, right? We're connecting it and. Okay. And, you know, big things came up in this person's life in the interim. And so the mind was occupied with other things. And she moved away from the family for a while and then she's back.

And so the conversation resume and the focus may come back to that, though even if you're not living anywhere near your family, chances are you're still dreaming about your family. You're still relating to me as though I'm part of the family sometimes. So it's alive and well. Well, in doing that is there is that the internal saboteur that saying you'll feel better if we just give you distance, physical distance between you, that might solve the problem even though it doesn't absolutely doesn't. Yeah. And sometimes look at it does solve some problems.

I mean, I think there is a reality that some people move far away and they are in certain ways relieved you don't have the guilt that you're not visiting more often. You don't have somebody dropping by unexpectedly. You're not called over to help and do things and do this and that. It relieves that. It just doesn't change anything deep inside. So, you know, yes, the family still goes with you, even if you move 10,000 miles away, you will still be wrestling with the dynamics. But you may be relieved of some of the day to day. And for some people, hey, that's good.

I'll take it. And maybe it does give you a little space to breathe and further explore it yourself. Yeah. Right. Because you're not having to only be occupied conscious sleep too. If you're completely unconsciously occupied, maybe you don't also want to be consciously occupied all the time with those people. So I was saying to her that she knows she's going to come by this on both sides of the family then. And I said unconsciously, This is going to be in both of your parents. And we can see now why nobody's really stopping the brother. And she says she thinks consciously to none of them really want me to say the things that I say, but now that I know them, I feel like I have to say some things.

I'm careful. I'm not looking to be the one everyone hates. But also I think it's good for them to see some of the things that are happening in the family without us knowing it. So she's finding her voice. And I said, So I guess if you choke or you get so drunk you can't remember anything, you're no longer a threat. And she said, It's so strange to see how all of this happens, but I keep dreaming about it. And I said, Well, here you fight back. You don't swallow the wine. You're not going to build your senses or lose your memory. You now know what you've learned about yourself and your family, and you can't be forced to swallow the old way anymore.

No wonder you're tired. It takes a lot of energy to fight right now, but that gets easier the more you do it. And that's the at home. And in her being able to speak up now, she now has this information and she feels like she can't help. But yes, say something. Is that mostly because she needs to be her true self and honor what that is rather than covering it up? Or is she protecting her family from each other? I see. You mean so. So she's going to now come to the defense of the mother, you mean? Yeah, it's a good question. I think you have to see which way it goes.

This dream here would say she's found her voice, at least to some degree. She's still a little afraid. She doesn't want to be the one everybody hates, but she's going to not swallow it anymore. Then what we have to look for is what does she do with it? Right? So she's got a feeling we see here. It puts her to bed. That getting stronger. There is then a backlash and they don't want me to talk. I said something. I have to feel terrible about this and the reason this takes a long time is she has to build the part of her that does it again. I could tell her, Just speak up.

You have every right to speak up in your family. And of course we talk about those things, but I have to do it using the dream, because the dream is where the feeling is. So the feeling here in this dream is they really don't want me to talk. They're going to jam this down. And then we get her. There's a fight. She's going to fight back. Now, whether she starts to protect the mother, she might she may do that. And what we have to do is wait for the dreams and her discussion. What does she come in with? You know, what's she thinking about? Where does it go?

Do we get another layer where she just is protecting mom all the time from the brother or the sister is a surrogate? Maybe you have to wait and see. So you don't know. But what you're trying to do each time is get it accurate enough from the dream so that her mind grows, that we're not just going over the same territory without some change. The mind wants to throw a little bit more in or it wants to say where it got stuck or it wants to be upset about something that didn't go right in the treatment. It may do all kinds of things as the mind is developing and she's coming back to life.

And she's potentially growing feelings about things too, where maybe she had the ability to feel this much. Now she can feel this much. You could say growing feelings. I would say she's getting in touch with them because if your silence asked, you may silence a lot of things, not just your voice, you may silence your feelings, She says. Nobody in the family wants to know. So how much are you paying attention to all your feelings? If nobody wants to know, nobody's asking. Nobody cares. So, yes, that is growing. Her mind is growing, which opens up the space to begin to have more of her feelings, identify them and use them to serve her, to make her decisions in life.

And one of the things she's doing here in this story is just making space for herself, telling the brother, back up, I see this now. I'm not drunk. I'm not on the floor in a stupor. I didn't drink all the wine. I now know this and you can't take it from me. I know it in my heart. And does she recognize that at the end of all this. She is beginning to, you know, she goes to bed. This is this is hard work for her. Right? She's really fighting a battle. So does she feel that? I mean, I think she gets the idea. Does she fully feel that yet? No, because it still hits her.

But what's very important is to support the growth and the growth here. We don't want to lose that. Yes, there's all sorts of things that are still at work, but I want to support here because this is going to help her. The part said, I'm not swallowing. I won't swallow it any more. Now I know I don't have to. Okay, now we got fight. Okay. So that was the end of that dream. That was the end of that dream. That was the end of that session. Her continues. We keep talking. We're meeting. She dreams about all sorts of things. And she comes in and she says it was a bit of a tough week.

There were so many things to handle with people coming into town for my parents wedding anniversary party and making sure that I had everything organized and covered. But it all went off without a hitch. I'm happy to say there were the usual annoyances, but I really felt like I could just roll with it all. A few people got snippy with me, but I kept my cool in the past. I think I would have let them have it or broken down crying, but I was okay. My brother was not okay. He drank too much and he was generally just an idiot, basically his usual self.

He can be funny, but it is always just obnoxious too. He had his girlfriend there and they seem happy enough. I guess. I think she likes his money or potential for money more than she really likes him, but he kind of deserves that. So I don't feel too bad for him. He's really picky, you know, picky about looks. So I think that's the tradeoff. Like she'll stay skinny and beautiful and he will keep the money coming in. I guess it works for them. And then she says the party was nice, the food was good. I think everybody enjoyed themselves. Luckily, the weather was good because it was out on a patio and was I was really worried that people would freeze.

But it worked and I'm just listening. She knows I don't have to say anything anymore because she knows how this goes. She comes in and she just gets to tell me whatever's on her mind. And I want to listen to that. I want to hear where is she? What's happening in our world? How does she feel about things? What does she say? What does she not say? She said, I think my mom enjoyed it the most. It was really for her. My dad held court as usual, but people genuinely seemed happy to be there for her and that was really moving. Some of her friends flew in from across the country and I think that made her feel special and she relaxed.

I felt like she was so much less anxious, but she's still all over the place and just chattering on about stuff. But I could tell it touched her. I don't get to see that with her a lot. She doesn't let her feelings show much. I try not to be that way. I've come out of my shell much more that way. I try to let people know where I am emotionally and if I need something, I guess I feel like I can let more of myself show, hang out there and not be worried that I will be judged for it or be too much. I had some good conversations with people. I was actually pleasantly surprised because I sort of expected it would be the kind of party where you just say hello to everyone and keep keep it moving and can't really have good conversations.

But I had some and they got deep. They were really satisfying. I felt like that was nurturing and I definitely heard some stuff. I wasn't expecting and maybe didn't want to know about people's divorces and such. But overall it was good. My dad, he still kills me sometimes. He was so cool, quiet and reserved, but I guess even that bothers me less. No arguments, no smartass comments from me, which is good. That's new and I feel so much better about being able to just keep my mouth shut in a good way now. Like I don't have to tell him everything I don't like.

I'm out of that phase that makes things so much easier. I don't have to feel angry all the time. So she went through a phase where she got her voice and then she used it. And it wasn't that they weren't still wanting her to be quiet. It wasn't that she still wasn't having those dreams from time to time, but she felt more free say things. And she did. And, you know, they weren't horrible things. I think to her. They felt like huge, awful things because by comparison, she was really talking to her because. She had talked zero. Exactly. But that even that was sort of a response to having been silent so long.

And and that started to settle. So she didn't feel the need every time, like, there's another thing I didn't tell you. And then at some point I ask her what she dreamt about and the dream as she was with her old boyfriend, Nathan and I rent a car. And then I think we go somewhere, use the car. And the dream is more about the end of the day. We have to return the car. I pull up and I see that they're closing down the lot. They're pulling down all these big gates. I know I have to pull into the lot and park park it to return it. I make them stop closing the gate and let me pull in.

And then I put the car in the right spot and drop the keys off in this little metal box and walk away. Nathan comes with me. I think I was just relieved that I got the car back and made it just in time. And I ask her what comes to mind about the dream? And she said, Well, the first thing, Nathan, he was my boyfriend about ten years ago. He lived up north, so we would commute and it was really fun at first and I looked forward to it. And then it just became drag. It was expensive and we weren't really able to be in each other's lives as much as we wanted.

Then he just broke up with me one day. I was shocked and totally heartbroken. And the looking back now, I think that was my ego more than the idea that I was really in love with him. I did like him, though, and I miss talking to him. He sort of just disappeared out of my life. No happy birthday texts or anything, like with other people. Weird because I don't usually think about him. And I said, What was he like? She said he was fun. He was smart and talkative and usually had some idea of a plan he wanted to do, like he would want to go down. Something he wanted to see.

That part was fun. I don't know that I really got to know much about him, really. Looking back, it was surface. So is it like my mom? Am I traveling around with her again? I was really hoping I would just be letting her go. It's so much easier for me to be around her, so I was hoping that was a good sign and not a sign that I was like her travel buddy or worse, dating her. And I said, I don't think it's that you're dating her here. I think it's that you're returning the car. You're returning her personality to her. The trip's over. You can return the car now.

Now she still stays with you, but you get the car back in the right spot. That's the important part here. I think it is her. Because you felt she just dropped you when you were a baby and it hurt. Even if you realized later you might not have loved who she was, you needed her as a baby. So that was a very consequential breakup early on. Heartbreaking, in fact. And I said, I think that's why you could be more relaxed and enjoy the party. You could do it more as yourself and not as your mother. And that's where we left that. So it's not over. Her mom's still there.

They returned the car? Yeah, they were on a trip together, her life. But she got the car back. And returned the keys. And returned the keys. I need your keys, Mom. To live my life. I need my own keys, my own understanding, my own gifts. That's what I need to live my life. And that's what she tells me about the party. At the beginning, you went, Well, I'm listening. What she telling me. All right. I was able to do things differently. I don't have to tell everybody every little thing. I got to have deep conversations with people. I could now find those people I didn't have to only have conversations with the family.

And she could let her mom be who she was and separate herself from the mom in her life. It wasn't her. The mom in her. That's right. That's right. And she could see my mom's anxious. Okay. My mom's going to be anxious. But I don't have to be anxious. I don't have to be her. That's huge. It's huge. So this looks nice. Wrapped up with a bow. It's tidy. But I wanted to start with some simple dreams in. A treatment over a number of years that lets you just see what's possible as you hit some milestones. That doesn't mean that in the middle there isn't a lot of her going to bed.

Look, people aren't going to bed so long that they're not able to work. I don't want to freak people out to. What you might have a particular exhausting week. You might when you might feel it and you might be sad for a while and learning some of this is heavy. What do you mean? My family doesn't even want me to talk and I've got to be a zero and all of these things. There must be some other reason. There must be, but you work your way through it. And the reason to go through all of that is because you get strong. And you feel that. You own it.

And that gives you the momentum to keep going, to. Keep going and to bring into the rest of your life whatever you decide to do, you get to do it as yourself. You want to make mistakes, but make them as you. Yeah, and this feels good. And why wouldn't you want more of that, right? Because it does feel good. I think here what's really important is for people to see that there's an entire life happening unconsciously, and we just don't get to see all of the pieces without the dreams. And that's the beauty of this. And feel really focused on using that dream and his understanding to help put a very detailed emotional story together that the dream would deliver so that people knew what had happened to them, why they felt the way they felt and how to fix it.

The idea is by going through the dreams piece by piece and interpreting them, you are pulling out toxins, trash, so to speak, emotional trash out of the mind, and you are also helping it expand and grow. And what that does is makes a space over time, not easy for a person to become who that person is really supposed to be. And so even though this can take a long time to do, but it's such a worthy endeavor because you're really just figuring out who you are and it's changing and you're growing. And yes, some periods are hard, but some are filled with great reward.

And it doesn't mean that you ride off into the sunset and have this magical life where you're not touched by any of the problems around us. We're all here on Earth. But the way you respond them feel it. Even if it hurts, you get it in the right spot. You understand what it really is, and then you can respond appropriately. It doesn't to take you or you don't have to deny everything to manage it, right? So you're really just building a much stronger, more robust mind and that lets you have all of your feelings. And we need that. We need yes, we need to be smart, but we need feeling.

We need them joined together so that you can use your feelings to make your best decisions for yourself. Then go live your life. And who wouldn't? I mean, if we just all asked ourselves the question, Is this the best life I can live? Or what is life all about? Is it about me making it through every day, paying the bills, putting food on the table, visiting the people I'm supposed to visit? Is this what life is about? There's is there more. And I think when you say yes, there's more, the only way you can truly get to it is is this way. Yeah, because you may be able to do lots of things on the surface.

We all do that. We do all we do. And I think if that worked, we'd be different. If that really worked, at the end of the day, we'd be different. People wouldn't be as depressed as they are, they wouldn't be as dishonest, they wouldn't be fighting each other. We wouldn't be doing it. So something's not working. Not so we have to try something new. And this is something new. It's real. It's psychoanalysis isn't new, but If you can look it and say, we all got an imprint and maybe people are going to come along and discover more that we got Vale would have liked.

Keep this going. Yeah, keep working on it. Maybe you'll find more. Expand, expand. This isn't to make him God. This isn't to say he had the answer to everything. Let's idealize him. He was a human being like everybody else, imperfect in many ways and really good at figuring out how the dream tells us about our life. And I think if people can start looking at this and just knowing, just knowing that your dreams are telling you something every single day is amazing. Look at the technology. We don't have to go into phones and computers and everything.

Look at the technology we. Have. At our fingertips every single day. It's just precious and it's just amazing that we just naturally go to the place of ignoring that. I mean, it's such a gift that we just overlook day by day by day. And even Bernard did. I mean, he he lived a long life. He tried this path and that path. And at least he knew that he himself was uncomfortable with the way things were working, both with himself, with his patients, the world, and came upon this right. He was struggling in some ways, not at all. And in other ways the soul was struggling.

Yeah, it was. It was unhappy and it pushed. So he pushed. So I think his theory asks us all to push, push, push into where you're scared to go, push into where it's uncomfortable and see what you learn, see what's possible. You could almost think that what's going on inside each of us, every individual all this unconscious, this living, this other life, separate from our feelings, is is really representative of humanity. I mean, if you think about what humanity is doing and what we're doing, it's pretty much the same. Yes. I mean, what you see that we struggle with as humanity, you know, we just we're going to fight a war.

We're going to kill each other. I mean, if you were really having feelings about that. If you're using your feelings to make decisions, how do you send somebody's child off to war? How do you kill somebody? Child that doesn't come from the heart that might come from up here. We have to do this. This is the way we save ourselves. This is the way we keep everybody safe. This is how we've done it. Yeah. And I don't want to be naive, okay? There are certain circumstances. I understand why people thought that was the way, but maybe we all have to stop and say it's not.

And no more. Enough, enough. No more. The heart says no more. We don't get to do this to each other anymore. And when you say that to yourself and your imprint, you're changing the way you live a life. What you said just now applies to the individual and to the way we treat each other. Start here. Yeah. Start with yourself. What can you say no to that? You never felt you had any power against. Or even thought you didn't. The thought didn't enter your mind, Right? So we just want to open it up enough to let some thoughts come in. And what if those are.

I just had an idea. I had a patient say to me, I just thought about something. Why couldn't I just do this A different way? And I know I've been talking about this and but you didn't tell me to do it a different way. And the patient had to say, I think I expected you to just tell me. Instead, I came to it out of our work together. Patients said, now I understand why you didn't just tell. Me because that would be serving that patient's intellect, not their feeling. Their intellect. And people are good at listening. Patients want to please me. They'll obey.

I say. What did they learn from it? They just learned that I said, Do this. Well, how about you figure out what you want to do? Then you do it. Help you build your mind. I'll help you get free of the chains so that the ideas get to come to you and that's what you need. So, Jessica continues on this path. Jessica goes on with her life, And does Jessica see that her life is way different than it was? Yeah. Jessica's very aware that she's not the same person she was when she came in, so. That's lovely. That's lovely. That's. That's the goal. That's the goal.

And then my goal is people go and go live your life for me. Maybe they'd share some of this information with those around them, or maybe those around them will see this beautiful change and ask questions about what effected that change. Well, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Thank you for letting share this work. Yes. And we want you to share more. Of course, It's so much work putting all of this together, but we need you to keep doing it. Yeah, I'm happy to do it. And there's, you know, as you can imagine, there's so many different problems we all struggle with.

So we'll try to cover different things, right? Because this just goes out into all sorts of little fingers. Right. Thank you again. Thank you all for joining us. This was just fabulous. And we'd love you to share your thoughts and follow us and come back again soon. Bye.