Healing Trauma Through Radical Self-Compassion with Frank Rogers

Transcript auto-generated from the episode audio; formatting has been cleaned up, but wording is verbatim.

I'm Cynthia Marks, and I head up the Holistic Psychoanalysis Foundation, established by my late husband, Doctor Bernard Bail. Welcome to And Now Love. Today we are diving into the transformative power of radical compassion. Joining me is a true luminary in the field of spiritual formation. Doctor Frank Rogers Jr. Frank is a professor at Claremont School of Theology and the co-founder of the center for Engaged Compassion. But more than his titles, Frank is someone who has walked the difficult path of turning profound personal trauma into a roadmap for healing others.

His work beautifully echoes our exploration of how we can rewrite the unconscious imprints that hold us back. Thank you for being here to help us understand how we can move from a fragmented mosaic toward a life cradled in compassion. Welcome. Thank you, Cynthia, and thank you for such a generous introduction. Yeah, we're happy to have you here. And you're so busy. We appreciate you taking out the time to come here and meet with us in Los Angeles. Yeah, well, it's my pleasure. Thank you for the invitation. Yeah. So your most recent book. Yes. Cradled in compassion.

Yeah. Cradled in the arms of compassion. And that's available wherever you buy your books. Wherever you buy books, it is available. Yeah. It's about a spiritual journey from trauma to recovery. So it's. Yeah. My personal story. Well, let's dive in. Tell us first to you. What is compassion? Well, compassion. Most simply, it's being moved by another person's experience. And feeling some warm regard for them. That prompts us to want to ease their suffering a little bit or promote their flourishing. It's a spiritual energy. I mean, when people take the time to really pay attention and really notice somebody and be moved by their experience and, and feel something toward them that wants to respond in a way that's connected and restorative.

That's it's a it's a beautiful, beautiful moment, a spiritual moment. And compassion, then, is different from empathy. I think we confuse the two. I think we confuse the two a great deal. Yeah. Empathy. For me, empathy is really like a parallel emotional experience. So if I see somebody's pain, I wince. Right. If I see somebody, you know, elated, they scored a winning goal or I get elated two or, it's an emotional parallelism. Which is great because it helps us like a tuning fork. I feel attuned, I feel like, okay, this person gets me or we're on a similar wavelength, but that's different than compassion.

You know, if we see somebody's suffering and we wince, I mean, we, you know, we get their pain enough that they feel like, okay, yeah, you get this. But if I stay there, that's going to actually create empathic distress for me, right? I'm going to wince. I'm like, oh my gosh, that's going to be awful. And it actually activates the pain response systems in our in our brain and releases cortisol and adrenaline and stress hormones. And so shifting from, oh my gosh, I get your pain to and I recognize your humanity and I see who you are. And I feel a warm, loving regard for you that makes me want to reach out in a way that's going to be restorative, that shifts it from that kind of pain response system to a, a connective system.

It releases oxytocin in our bodies. It restores us that the love hormone as opposed to depleting us. So, so empathy is very, very different. I mean, it's a precondition for compassion, but but it's different. And if we only feel empathy, yeah, we're going to end up in distress. Yeah. And so compassion is super important in keeping us truly connected to each other. I still feel like, it's, you know, probably for a lot of us, elusive. How do we know when we're feeling compassion or how do we know feel when someone's got compassion for our situation?

Yeah. My experiences is we kind of have an inner barometer around this. I mean, we kind of know what it feels like when when we experience compassion, we we can sense when somebody is genuinely connected to me or interested in how I'm doing or what I'm thinking, as opposed to I'm on their To-Do list, or they're going through the motions. They're there is an inner barometer that kind of resonates way. Oh my gosh. And and you know, my experiences when that happens, it it there's kind of a little relative, you know, of time like things kind of stopped for me.

I was like, oh, wait a minute. Let's pause here. Something really important is happening here. It expands our spiritual capacities. And, and, and so, so we kind of have that tuning fork when we, when we experience it. And I think we all have that capacity to extend compassion to others as well. When we are able to kind of settle into our, our deepest self, our best self, where our capacities that our spiritual abilities reside within us. So for me, it's about accessing that that deeper place within us and I'm taking the time to, to do that. And is this something that you've known throughout your life that that compassion has this capability?

It's something that I observed and witness. Absolutely. I mean, for me, I mean, if it were a personal might for me, it's kind of the icon of compassion was my grandmother. Angelina Clementina, Irene Cavalli Rogers, who was an immigrant. People from Italy. Yeah. You know, Italian was her first language and just a beautiful, beautiful human being. And, you know, she was one of those. But you go to her house and she's in the kitchen. She's going to be cooking for you. And, but what I remember is, when I was in high school, we lived in San Francisco.

There was a child of the deacon, a son of the deacon was engaged to a prominent daughter in the church, and they were going to get married. But it turned out that this man came out as gay when he came down with grid. Back when gay related immune deficiency before they realized that that was not just gay men and, it was Aids and his church, they ostracized him. His family kicked him out. He moved into San Francisco and, into a shelter. And when my grandmother found out about that, she found out what shelter he was at. Went over to the shelter and saw him.

And, you know, he was emaciated. He was weeks away from passing, and she could just see, you know, his deepest fear was he's going to die alone. And something in her said, not on my watch. And she brought him to her house, converted the guest over her sewing room into a guest room, had a bed for him, and for the last four weeks of his life, she sat with him and, and, you know, fed him broth and put ointment on his lesions and sang him lullabies. And she was with them when he passed, literally singing lullabies from the old country. And for me, I mean, I remember that like it was yesterday and it was such a powerful, powerful experience to see my grandmother tending to him.

And, and it was like I knew something special was happening here. You know, this is a restorative energy, a restorative presence that that I want to be able to know for fully in my life people who would extend that kind of care to me, but also I want to live a life like that and, you know, she she embodied compassion and something when you see it, it's like that special. There's something there that is tender and special. That's what it means to be human. Yeah, that's what it that's what it means to be human. Right? Dutiful. So she came packaged with that.

In some ways. I mean, but I think we all have the capacities for compassion. I mean, all of us, you know, can can kind of find a tenderness towards a pat towards, towards a loved one, towards a grandchild. I mean, we all have the capacity. We're wired for connection. We're wired for that kind of a yes. Yes, but that was a big reach. And that was a big reach. So. So this was somebody who who also cultivated a life. I mean, she was a very spiritual person. She prayed every day. She was a lifelong Catholic. And so her own spiritual practice was one that was cultivating her own capacities for, for doing that and for wanting to be that kind of presence in the world.

I mean, that was that was part of her mission. I was part of her life's vocation that gave her her meaning. And and it's also not just for the other person. I mean, it was restorative for her, too, when we when we extend compassion to another, I mean, this kind of thing. But they call it that helpers high. I mean, there's like a moment of connection that feels restorative and regenerative for us. I mean, we we can feel that ourselves. There was a study of, of doctors, who, you know, chronically say, I just don't have time to try to connect compassionately with my patients.

I got so many things to do. And so they did a study. What? Just practicing 30s of compassionate connection with a patient. When you walk in through the day, just 30s to pay attention to them, ask them how they are feeling and emotionally connect, hear what they're feeling and be emotionally connected to that, and then extend that warm regard. Live your desire to be an agent of healing for them, for 30s. And what they discovered was in those 30s, the doctors, first of all, remembered this is why they were doctors in the first place. They they came back in touch with the, you know, the compassion that brought them into their work.

And they felt so restorative out of the connection that it's like time stopped for a few moments and their own spirits were replenished, and they feel like they had more time in the day by taking that extra 30 seconds to compassionately connect. So there is something restorative about it when we can cultivate that in our lives. 30s in a day with a barista, you know. Right. That's pretty fabulous. And I think it's truly something that you can practice, you know, if you if you say to yourself, I don't know how to make that connection, I mean, I say, how are you?

And then I turn my head, or, hey, what if you said, how are you? And the person responded, and then you asked another question and they said something else, and you asked another question. I mean, then you start to really get into each other. Then that person also feels some amount of safety. I've been hurt. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it can be cultivated like that. And so and part of it starts with, you know, just paying attention to another person, taking the time to just notice the other person because we so seldom do that. Right. We're going through our day and, you know, get the things that we got to get done and or through our own agenda or our own assumptions or.

Prejudices. Don't have time and just stop for that moment and and notice the, the barista just like, oh my gosh, this is a human being right there. And then you alluded to like curious. Yeah, I'm just curious, how are they doing? Just how was your day. And I genuinely would like to know. I'm genuinely would like to hear your answer. And when they offer an answer removed by it. I'm having a great day. Oh how cool. Wonderful. Or you know what? It kind of sucks. And it's that empathic and just oh my gosh, I'm so sorry to hear that. And let me just kind of access that warm, you know, that grandmotherly care that my grandmother had or images like, oh my gosh, yeah, you're a human being.

You're having a hard day. Let me just take a moment and appreciate what you just said. Appreciate your humanity and and be here for another moment. Yeah. You want to say a little bit more about that or, you know, whatever, whatever we might respond. But yeah, it is quite something when you when you're working through your busy day and you're in line to get your coffee and you think, I, I just can't take the 15 seconds to. But once you start doing that, that 15 seconds is is nothing but a jewel, then you know, it's it's and you're right. It is not that you've lost 15 seconds out of your day.

No. Yeah. You walk away with a little more of a skip in your own step, right? I mean, there's something in your own spirit that got rekindled here. And yes, it's a gift that we give to ourselves exactly as well. Yeah. I think there's a lot of talk these days, too, about, you know, genuine connection versus the idea of connection that there's a checklist. Well, these are the things I'm supposed to do. You know, I'm supposed to say something good to someone or help someone every day. I mean, check it off the list. And that's great because you're doing something good.

But when you genuinely do it, when it comes from your place of love or from your heart, and you make that human connection, it's it's it's huge. It's and I think that is the human experience we in in being human. We need to connect with each other. I know there are a lot of us who you know are lonely, and it's a tragedy that so many people aren't connecting with each other. And and we're doing things with technology that, you know, are sort of sending us further in that direction of, you know, a lot of alone time. But to have these conversations and to bring to the forefront how important our connections are.

I think the way it's there's we just can't do this enough. Yeah. I absolutely yeah, I mean, like attachment theorists have helped us realize that as much as we need, our bodies need food and water to survive. Our spirits need connection and attachment for our spirits to survive. If we don't have moments where we feel seen and heard, if a child goes through that not feeling seen or heard or connected with, I mean, they're going to be depressed. I mean, they're going to decline. We need this. We're wired for this. And and that's how, yeah, that's how we we grow and that's how we are find resilience and and same thing as adults, right?

I mean, if we don't take the time to genuinely connect, I mean, something in us starts to get depleted. It starts to wither inside. Yeah. So in your book is, is this sort of what was happening to you as a child that you weren't able to find, or you, your grandmother? Thank goodness. The places of compassion, places where you could be held, supported, made safe. Tell us how you what your journey was and how you. I don't want to say recovered, but how you what would be a better word, how you came to understand the importance of that and to move on and do what you're doing now, which is so helpful to all of us.

Yeah, yeah, well, well, thank you for that. Yes. So yeah, I didn't grow up with this at all. I'm, I mean, I'm a sexual abuse survivor and, and so my, my childhood was extraordinarily chaotic and abusive and trauma filled and, and so, you know, in trying to cope with that, I mean, I just had the rages within me and depressions and suicidal impulses, you know, and part of being a sexual abuse survivor is the shame. I mean, that that nobody could know what had happened to us. And we just keep that buried up so, so severely so that I was left 30 years old and, you know, putting up this polished image of, I'm a professor and, you know, a churchgoer and, you know, being a good family person and whatnot.

But inside, I mean, I just had these rages and this self-loathing and put myself to sleep with suicidal people, you know, just how could I die tonight or or the depressions or these, you know, memories. I mean, they would just just haunt me, and I would just try to push them. Push them away. And which was absolutely. You know, it's like trying to push a boy underwater. I mean, you know, or even worse, right? I mean, yeah, trying to take a volcano and put it underwater. It just would spit up in all, you know, different ways. To the point. Yeah.

Where I did try to kill myself and ended up in an institution. And that for me, was really kind of the turning point of my life. In the mental hospital, it was had, you know, the most profound spiritual experience, one of the most profound of my life, but also completely an invitation to have a completely different relationship with my own internal world. And and it revolved around compassion, because what I was doing was I was judging all of these impulses. I they were bad. They were not very spiritual. They made me dirty. If anybody saw them, they would be disgusted by me.

You know, there's something wrong with me for feeling all this stuff. And so I would either try to suppress all of that or I would try to manhandle it. Right. I'd try to, you know, will, in a way, with the spiritual practice. Okay. I'm just going to fast, you know, to make that rage go away or I'm going to try to meditate or whatnot. But again, it was like pushing a boy underwater, but just made things worse and worse until it just exploded. And the absolute linchpin, I mean, the game changer for me was when I came to realize that all of these interior movements, all of these, these impulses within us, they're there for a reason.

If they are there as some kind of a cry, they rooted in suffering. They're rooted in in pain, the rooted in some deep knee that is aching to be heard and aching to be met. So instead of judging and suppressing, I began to turn inward and start exploring that with compassion. Okay, this rage, where does it come from? What's underneath it? What is? And and the paradoxical thing was, as I began to extend exactly that kind of curiosity and openness and let me really try to understand from that genuine place to myself, as opposed to like just to another person, those interior movements, those parts of us began to relax.

That's what they they ached to be heard. They ached to be met. And what wherever the root was underneath that ached to be healed. And it was compassion towards myself. Then that began to bring about an interior restoration. Absolute game changer. I was never taught that in any psychological or spiritual tradition that I was deeply involved in. And was there some person who was helping you with this? Absolutely. I mean, I was in therapy and came across an amazing therapist who was who had these sensibilities. I mean, you know, therapy sessions for Mark.

What is wrong with me that I'm feeling all this? I mean, what an awful person I am, is it? No. Your feelings are here for a reason. The body doesn't lie. There's something going on. Let's explore that with compassion. I mean, so, so absolutely. Having compassion based therapeutic support was huge in the midst of that, I was also with a spiritual director that was very similar, who helped me just kind of access those spiritual resources that are just nothing but compassion. And so, yeah, I absolutely had people that were helping me along the way as well as, you know, kind of just daily.

My meditation practice daily was, okay, let me take plunges to my inner world and. All right. Yeah, I'm just insane with rage. Okay. Let me just find a way to be able to catch my breath and not get caught up in the energy of it, but just say, okay, it's here for a reason. Can I just kind of be with it and can I just be open? Okay. Where are you coming from? What is going on? And and accessing that capacity. Help that be able to relax. And then what was the pain underneath that. And then. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It's like these young ones inside of me still living in the terror of of that abuse.

And what did they need from me. Yeah, they needed my compassion. They needed my compassion. You know, they're like still imprisoned in the in the camper shells or wherever they were and like, okay, yeah, you need me to come and be with you with compassion. And that was the game changer. I'm so glad that that happened for you. Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't be here. Absolutely. When you were struggling with this, when you were full of rage and. But yet you were still teaching and a person of theology. How did you manage those two different worlds, I guess.

Well, not very well, exactly. Yeah. No, I mean, it was just that's also, you know, the severity of the shame of a release of a sexual abuse survivor. I mean, the shame was so unbelievable. I mean, if anybody had even an inkling of kind of the horrors that I had gone through or the cacophony inside of me, I was convinced I would be just, you know, they would be disgusted. And so the severity of that just ratcheted up that the tenacity with, I will not let anybody see this. And so would go to work or whatever. But when I got home, I mean, the lid comes off, I was uncorked, you know, through my sleep, I mean, through by the marriage I had at the time.

I mean, it was awful. I was I was a wreck. I was an absolute, absolute wreck. And it was not sustainable to the point where I could not I could not keep the container down anymore. And it just erupted. And and thank goodness it erupted in a way that, you know, I didn't actually drive off the cliff. I got to the help and ended up in hospital and, and began a, you know, decades long journey of, okay, let's let's find a way of restoration. And it was absolutely a way of compassion. I had a similar experience. And it's I think the we have interesting humans, different ways of dealing with the trauma that we go through in our lives.

And I convinced myself that what had happened to me, this sounds so weird. It's it's, you know, it's still embarrassing for me to say it out loud was really love, was really love. And and I turned it into something in my head that it wasn't. I was so ashamed and yet this was all in my head. I didn't share this with anyone, with anyone. But yet it affected my relationships with friends and and romantic relationships. I held this thing as love. It was a fantasy, and all my real life relationships could never match up to that thing that wasn't a reality.

I remember listening to the radio one day and there was a report on sexual abuse of teenage girls, and I was so moved by that and I thought, how can this happen to these young women? I felt such empathy, compassion and removed. Thank goodness that never happened to me. I mean, I made up a whole story, a whole story, and it it would I mean, it wasn't until maybe 15 years ago that I began to really look at that honestly. And that was not on my own. That was in in my case, with the love and support of my husband, and was really the first time. It was first time my entire life where I had a space where I felt like I was loved and that there was compassion and that I could share, and this person was not going to be disgusted by me.

And it took me a long time to really believe that that was true. And I even tried a little bit at a time. And one day I said, how could I have thought that was love? How am I, you know, not a bad person for having shared that. I mean, it was so much and my gosh, we are so not alone. We're so not alone in having these experiences and all the unique ways we try to, you know, handle the trauma or squash it down or turn it into something. It isn't. I mean, I don't know about you, but I even had the experience of if I let go of this thing that I've told myself is the truth.

What what fills that space. What do I do with this new open territory threatening. It's and it's and charted. It's. Yeah. Absolutely. Did you feel some of that. Oh 100%. Yeah 100%. And and and and thank you for sharing your tender story because it is so common. And that's one of the things that I think is so important is that we do share these stories so that people recognize themselves in that. And, I. Think so while you wrote an entire book and put it all on paper. So thank. You. Yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of out of that impulse for sure. Yeah, yeah.

But you know, but also, I mean, the kind of like self-compassion that I invite, you know, experience for myself. It is radical in that it offers compassion to every interior movement or every impulse within us. So even even that part of us that says, you know, I'm going to turn this into love or the part of me that is just going to suppress this because it is so shameful. Well, that means well, too, right? I mean, it's it's a blessing. Just to help. Us survive and trying to make sense out of this. And, and, you know, if we if we do violence to that part of us, you know, it's only it's only going to escalate the inner chaos as well.

So it's like, you know, can we have compassion even for, you know, that that that part of me that's trying to make sense out of this in this weird way or or the part of me that, you know, look for relief in suicidality. I mean, that's destructive. That is, that is can I have some compassion, like, okay, I see where you were. Come. I see where that came from and how you were trying to at least find me some peace in the midst of this. We don't need to do it that way anymore. I mean, and that's the paradoxical thing is, is as we extend compassion even to these kind of destructive impulses within us, they begin to relax within us, you know?

And so that's a way of healing. It's like, okay, I don't have to be gripped by suicidality or gripped by this illusion, that of of making meaning, you know, that can that can dissipate. And because I have those deeper capacities within us, I mean, so compassion for me really is a restorative interior balm. For for all of the stuff that we are trying to make sense of in our in our experience. Yes, it and I mean, it is part and parcel to what we talk about here really. And that we are, you know, wanting to help individuals to get back to who they truly are, to understand their authenticity, to not sort of be burdened by the trauma that we carry unconsciously, consciously supporting all this stuff that we've been given through the course of life, or even in utero or past generations, because that's not who we are, that's our circumstances.

That's trauma. But who we are is this beautiful thing. And, you know, it gives us a new way to look at our comrades in the world, and it helps us see the love and humanity in, in each of us. But we can't really get there fully until we have some self compassion. So are there different types of compassion, a spiritual connection with spirit, compassion as self-compassion, a compassion for other humans? Are those the same thing or or is one required for the others? Yeah, I mean, I see them as interconnected. I mean, and my work. Yeah, it kind of talks about a three fold rhythm of compassion, you know, so that compassion, our capacity, capacities for compassion are deepened when we are able to connect with some kind of, of a sacred source of compassion, you know, whatever that might be.

But in all spiritual traditions, whatever is considered ultimate, it's it's it's compassionate. I mean, that is at its core and, you know, and whether we we anthropomorphize that and call it God or whether that's just the, the energy that that sustains this universe when we are connected to that, you know, in, in various moments, we feel ourselves held in, in some transcendent presence of compassion, some energy that is sustaining and restorative. And so the more we can kind of deepen our own rootedness in that, or kind of come back home to that, the more we are able to relax into and become our best selves, so that that is one dimension of cultivating compassion.

And then self-compassion would be a second piece. Is that okay? You know, I at my expense is exactly like yours. We have this spiritual essence within us. It's beautiful. It's a it's a spark of the divine. And it's in every single human being. And and the amazing thing is no matter how traumatized we are, it doesn't damage that spark that that spiritual essence within us still beats. It may be deeply, deeply buried, but it's it's within us. And if we can tend to all of the the cacophony and the emotions and the impulses that dislodges from that tend to those with compassion, we can settle back into who we really are in our truest humanity.

And then thirdly, yeah, as we are able to do that more, that opens our capacities to be able to recognize that every human being, on the one hand, has a spark of the divine within them, or has a spiritual essence of beauty and humanity, every single human being, no matter who and when we are dislodged from that. And people embody things that are difficult, it's because of pain. It's because of suffering is because of trauma. They weren't born that way. They have an essence in them. It's something traumatize them out of that. And so we can have compassion for that as well.

And and out of compassionate action, maybe create spaces where people can find their own inner center again as well. So yeah, three eyes to kind of see the three threefold dimensions of compassion. Yeah. And you said it so well it seems like an easy thing to for an individual to approach. And you just start investigating with some curiosity. There's three components of compassion. I, I so agree with you in that there is something whole and beautiful in each of us, and. A lot of us, I think, don't have an opportunity in life to to really give it a lot of consideration.

You know, we just want to make sure there's food on the table for our children and we want to make sure there's enough money so we can keep a roof over our heads. And I feel like our world now is faced with so many individuals who have to attend to, the nature of the world right now that that we can't take the time or feel the preciousness of taking that time to investigate what that means. And I don't know how we how we get there except for having conversations, you know, sort of like this. You're doing it on a large scale, do the work you do as a professor and your books and how do we how do we make this more widespread?

I mean, we keep saying we just if we can affect one individual who then affects another individual in another, well that's something is that what we do? Yeah. I mean for me it's like it's like discerning what is mine to do. Right. So we all are going to have different invitations and how we can cultivate a more compassionate world. And so what what is mine to do? And some of these things are so big. Yeah. We can't transform the social structures, but we can be involved in advocacy work or, you know, justice work that is helping create conditions so people aren't so mired in the things that dislodge them from those, those centers.

But also, you know, just, you know, talking with one person, you know, speaking to the heart of one person and, and cultivating that compassionate connection. That's that's beautiful. I mean, that's gorgeous in and of itself. And so, so I want to kind of be careful that we don't just sort of glorify the the maximum. Right? I mean, just let's celebrate the, the little moments, the little connections, because those those are restorative and those, those add up. It's like the little snowflakes that that continue to fall and and yeah, if we continue to cultivate those yeah, something something big's going to happen.

You know, the the avalanche will move us in a different direction over time. So. Well, in fact, as you say that I remember Bernard, my husband, saying to me when he said, when I pass away, if there's anything you can do to move my work forward, then I was just. I don't know what the I said, how could I even begin? I'm, I'm, you know, you're this fabulous doctor and you've been doing this for decades, and I just happened to love you to pieces. And you're we've had this amazing relationship where we just talk for, you know, 24 hours a day, whatever it might be.

And he said, just one individual at a time. One person. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. Makes a big difference, I think. Really. But I think too, that the only way we're we're going to stop the wars, heal the world, is to really come to each other with love and we always talk about what is sort of a bad rap love gets in terms of being a, a word that encompasses a lot of things and it but it is it is not corny. It is. It's our ultimate tool for saving ourselves. I genuinely believe that that compassion, compassionate love is the healing elixir personally in our souls, but also socially in our world and in relationships and and all of it.

It is that, that healing restorative agent, that that philosopher's stone and and you experience that too. I mean, just how tender with your husband and how, you know, there was compassion there that created a space where, where what remnants of that still needed healing within you were able to be tended and nurtured and, and out of that, not just one individual and that you're doing, you know, these these podcasts and these conversations and you know what is yours to do, just kind of nudging along one piece at a time, cultivating compassionate love in the world.

That's. Yeah. Look at how this turned around to you telling me I'm doing good work. But you are. I mean, that's just genuine. We're here because you're so good at what you're doing, and and, you know, bringing things to light that we wouldn't otherwise know. So is this something that you're teaching at Claremont? Is it compassion? Is there a. Course there that actually is right. Exactly. So yeah. So we teach at Claremont courses on how how compassion can be a personally restorative spiritual practice or invitation. How do you tend to our inner worlds and how do we access that, that self within us that has compassion and find healing from whatever our journey has been?

And we also teach courses in what does it mean to embody compassion in relationships? We work a lot with activists as well. What is compassionate social engagement? So we teach courses in how to actually cultivate this way of being and the practices that sustain that. And at the center for Engage Compassion, we also teach workshops and courses, and we have a training program just for regular folks who don't want to go get an academic degree but want to be able to. How do we access those, those springs of compassion within us and, and have retreats and workshops that, that deepen that and, and how we can embody that more fully in our lives wherever we are living in our relationships and and discern what is ours to do and, embodying compassion in the, in the world.

So, so, yeah, so we do workshops, teaching in both contexts. So your, your courses at Claremont are under the umbrella of theology. Yeah. Or spiritual formation. Yeah. Yeah. It's yeah it's a school, an interfaith school of theology. Yeah. So a lot of folks are training to become spiritual caregivers of one form or another, or pastors or rabbis or your imams. And then in your center, as you say, that's open to, to anyone. Right. And how does one find out about what you're up to there? Yeah. At the center for Engage compassion.com. I mean we have a web page that there are programs are are advertised.

So that's the easiest way to, to get Ahold of us. Yeah. And if one were to take part what is what's is there an ultimate goal or is that also a very. Is that a unique situation that everyone would come in to that program with, with a different desire and then an ultimate end product? Yeah, yeah. I mean, there would be some different desires. Our, our bread and butter though is, is, you know, kind of what we call the compassion practice. And so most people come in and it is this a compassionate process by which we tend, on an everyday level, just tend to what's going on in our own lives.

And all of the the impulses and emotions and self-talk that harasses us, that kind of dislodges us from our deepest core. How do we tend to all of that? And we what do we do with all of that? And so we develop these compassion based processes of instead of suppressing it and judging it or, or trying to will it away by, by spiritual intention or whatnot. Let's turn to let's turn to all of that with compassion. So we walk people through how to tend to our own interior lives with a compassion based approach that that not only kind of spills the cacophony, but helps us access our own deepest self essence, that spiritual core within us.

And so just I mean, you know, it's it's a fairly straightforward process to describe, but to do it, it takes a lot of practice and a lot of support. And and so we have groups and we have facilitators and trained companions to kind of facilitate that process. But helping persons learn this, this, this, this very powerfully restorative way of tending to our own interior lives. And then we have workshops and. Okay. And and then what would my my relationships, you know, so how do I be my most compassionate self and the relationships at my home or at my workplace?

And what are the practices by which we do that? So we train for those. And then we have also workshops and courses on, you know, I want to be an agent of compassion in this very polarized world. So how might we do that as well? And we host conversations across difference, for example, and and how to have compassionate dialog with people who are different from us and, and how do we discern, you know, what we might do that nurtures a little bit more of a of a society of equity and dignity and compassion in the midst of that? So, so, yeah. So there's different entry points.

And but it's the same sensibilities, we're, we're cultivating in all of those. We could all use a dose of being compassionate amongst ourselves. Now, with all of our disparate differences in our polarization. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I then that's been at the heart of our work, you know, these last few years especially. I can imagine. That it's such a pull and not just nationally. I mean, there are, you know, faith communities that are deeply polarized and splitting and families and communities and, just people so entrenched in, in polarized ideologies and, and, you know, and again, it's this compassion based approach, you know, so, so, you know, people fight for something fiercely because something's at stake for them.

So it comes from some place, that ideology or that behavior that there's some deep pain underneath there that's being protected or some deep need or, or some value that's feels sacred and being threatened. Something is going on. And so if we just shame each other or try to silence each other or just debate each other, that's only going to entrench us all the more in whatever, whatever we are mired in, I think. So how do we do something different, you. Know, like this internal feelings that you were having would only be heated. Exactly. It only escalates if it's been trying to been talked out of or trying to be suppressed or trying to be fixed or changed or managed.

It only intensifies it. And people are the same way. You know, we just approach people and trying to change them or fix them or they're just going to get more deeply rooted. And, you know, so what if we can cultivate a posture of, okay, I know I just really don't understand, but I would like, do I really like to understand what's so important for you, what's at stake for you in this? Help me understand. And, and and there are conversations that could be had where people can genuinely appreciate. Okay, I get that. I still disagree, but I have understanding now and and we have some common humanity in the midst of this as well.

We have some appreciation for each other, but also recognizing that this person is more than just that ideology, too. And, and, you know, kind of their life that was underneath that becomes clear for us. And we connect around that to and and a different type of relationship is possible, which is what a democracy is, right? It's not that we all. Agree, right. It's that we. Live civilly and with dignity and humanity, treating each other with kindness and curiosity even in the midst of our differences. Yes. Which I'm very proud of America in terms of that having been how we started.

And just to get back to that would be a treasure. That would be a treasure we've gotten so far from those moorings. Right. But that was a beautiful vision. Absolutely. Still is a beautiful it is. It is. And if we can just keep that in mind, you know, across so many platforms in life, you know, you know, something like happened with, recently with the Methodist church where they split because of beliefs about, you know, the gay community and not the gay community. It's that, too, that it's hard for me to, you know, sort of wrap my head around because we call upon these agencies to sort of represent love and compassion.

And can you help me settle with that? Well, I would say a couple things. I mean, first of all, I yeah, absolutely. I agree with you completely. Our faith communities, we hope our, our, our spaces that are tapped into this, this spiritual energy, that is able to hold, you know, polarities together and treat people with kindness and, and dignity even in the midst of our different. We hope for this in our in or in the midst of conflict and and difference, that that we can still have some treat each other with humanity in the midst of that. And so that that our faith communities do split in rancorous ways is deeply tragic.

And it again, I pinches my soul, too, because it's like something is wrong. That's not that's not the spiritual essence of compassion that I know is so restorative for our world. That's not that. We've, we've we've gotten dislodged from that. I would also say that it's possible to have disagreement, and it's even possible to be to have to split communities. Yes. That we, you know, we really do systems, things very, very differently and our own commitments into who we are going to be tending and are really going to be a stretch. It might be better off for us to have just separate communities and do that, but we can do even that with compassion and with care, right?

I mean, it's like, you know, conscious uncoupling, right? We can we, you know, there may be relationships that do need to be severed, but we can do that in ways that are still maintaining the humanity of the other is not being dismissive and self righteous or, you know, cantankerous. So I would like to see that that kind of win win the day. Yes. And in that particular instance, is that what you think is happening, that the two factions sort of backed away saying, you know, we we it's okay to not get along and we need to support what we're doing.

And we still love you guys over there. So this is a huge issue across the Methodist denomination. And so it's all over the map. No that's okay. But I mean the answer is there are there are places where that split happened in just horrifically cantankerous ways. I mean, we're just just awful. I mean, and and lawsuits and, and, you know, just really, really challenging and behavior on both sides being done towards, towards the others. And there are places where that split has happened in precisely this way, where there has been some amicable, you know, recognition of the differences.

And we're going to she's still treated with humanity and celebrate. You go your way and we're going to go our way. Wish you nothing but the best. So so it's diverse. I mean it's it's happens both ways. Yeah. Like the world. I like the. World. Exactly. Yeah. Well, and I suppose though, you know, in the world of theology, we have all of these, you know, in different modes of operation, different bits of organ, organized religions, you know, that continue to morph and become something different. And this group separates from that group. And, you know, hopefully we do that well and, and in loving ways.

Yeah. But we hope, we hope and and it doesn't happen a lot. I mean often those splits and are really, really painful. You know, religious institutionalization itself can be really painful to where where the institution becomes very dislodged from the spiritual currents that gave rise to it. You know, I mean, I am Catholic and, you know, the Catholic Church or, you know, other Christian organizations do not fully embody the spirit that I saw in Jesus, who was nothing but about compassion. And so that those institutions got very far away from the spiritual impulses that that gave rise to them.

I think so, too. And I think a lot of us, a lot of what can be put upon us in these institutions, feeds that that discomfort that we feel deep inside that we're trying to contend with, like you said, in these ways of self-compassion that may not serve us, but it's still us saying to ourselves, well, you don't want to feel like this when you try this real well, that doesn't work. And I just feel like that that adds to the yucky ness we have to feel about ourselves. If you know the page that we've been told we we honor and adore and listen to is saying you're not to be loved unless you do these things, and that adds to your already I'm not loved anyway sort of program.

It's it's a lot. It is it's a it is a lot. Yeah. I mean and religious and spiritual trauma is very real and and that was certainly my experience too. I mean, you know, the religious communities that I was deeply involved in were telling me that I was sinful and shameful and the things that I was feeling are, are awful and signs that I'm so far away from God and, and and even the way our God was talked about just was just so painful. You know, God, God has, you know, his reasons for letting these things happen. Like, are you kidding me? I mean.

Why. You know, so what is wrong with me? That that that God would let all this happen to me. And so, I. Mean, kind of God does let that. Kind of God lets that happen. Exactly, exactly. So I think there's a lot of false gods being taught in religious communities. I think it's. It's an awful lot for you to come through what you came through and still really have this faith. My faith is not in the institution. Right. But yeah, my faith is in, you know, a deep, deep sense, a deep experience that has been sustained through through my last, you know, decades that there really is some spiritual reality.

It's, you know, for me, it's just it's an energy of love that just keeps everything connected and sustains all things. And I don't anthropomorphize it myself that it doesn't make sense for me, but but that there is some some reality there. And when we brush close to that, whether in lovely conversation or at a sunset or in moments of presence, when we're connected to that, it just feels loving. It feels benevolent. It feels like I am held right here, I am cradled, I am seen, I am heard, and that is profoundly restorative. It is deeply, deeply restorative.

And so, so my faith is in that and and wanting to understand how faith communities can be about cultivating connection with that, and how that then translates leads into our practices of self restoration and compassion for others that embodies that spiritual impulse. And critiquing the religious structures and teachings that are just so violating of what that's about. So yeah, my faith is in that deep knowing about that. But that's not taught a lot in the spiritual communities that that we find ourselves in. But you came from a place where you had to question your value because someone told you, God thought you deserved this, and you had to question what kind of God would do this.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I learned a lot there, right? Yeah. Come a long way. Yeah, I was convinced. I was convinced that I was just soiled goods and that God was disgusted with me, absolutely convinced. And I still had this vision of this God that's all powerful and makes things happen and could have stopped this abuse but didn't. And for God's mysterious reasons. And I still had this, that God constructed that, but only exacerbated the pain and the trauma and all that had to that that all had to die, that all had to be dismantled and deconstructed and out of that ashes, some other palpable spiritual reality emerge that genuinely was transformative and restorative.

So many people going through that. Yeah. What are some helpful things that we could share today to help people that are struggling practice techniques around compassion or love? I know those the word technique and love don't really go together, but you know, you you what you went through. Your path was decades long and mine was decades long. And and if there is a way to help people kind of see themselves in a more whole way, to see themselves as something to love, what are what are some things that people can do? Yeah. Well, what you just name feels really important, right?

There is just to see ourselves in a different way. Right? I mean, to wherever we are, whatever we're struggling with, whatever shames or challenges that we're carrying, that we judge, if we could turn and see ourselves with the same care we would for a beloved friend who is coming to us with those very things, you know, we'd say, hey, you know what? There's a reason why you're you're feeling all of this right now, and you tell me, you know, tell me more. Let me understand what's going on. And you know what? It's a miracle that you're even surviving at all, given everything that you've been through.

And so being able to not be at war with ourselves, but rather this radical acceptance and, you know, where I am is is a beautiful thing in and of itself. And there's reasons for all of it. And it can be held with care and curiosity and understanding with that, just that shift of our own. That's a gigantic for me. That's a gigantic shift, I think. So thank you for that. And and this love, this light of love that we each have in us, we each have in us. We we aren't. I'm not that bad thing. I always said that before, but I, I really believe that.

Original goodness, not original sin. Yeah. Here's a big difference. That's the lighten. Lighten day, right? Exactly, exactly. And also finding people that see you that way is huge, right? Your husband I mean, what a what a gift. That was. Unbelievable. Absolutely, absolutely. And so yeah, whether it's, you know, a companion or a friend or a therapist or a spiritual director, but but finding people who can see us in ways that we're having a hard time seeing ourselves, those are those are lifelines. Those are precious, sacred gifts. That's where.

And then somewhere, finding the strength to bring yourself forward, or the strength to look at what you thought was a truth and think, what if I didn't look at it that way? What would happen if I thought about this in another way? Yeah. What if I didn't feel dirty? What? What would I feel? Yeah. Yeah, right. I mean, in that shift in perception feels really big and important. And and also, I mean, kind of recognizing the deep suffering within us where that comes from, you know, like, for me, I mean, just like, like the children still in prison in these traumatic memories, what they needed from me was, was compassion.

They needed and even even kind of in meditative in, in deep ways, you know, to actually kind of be with them and say, you know what? Those are lies that you absorb about, you know what's wrong with you because of this. And and to actually kind of extend to them the kind of care and compassion that they did not have back then that rewires our brain. It rewires the deep narratives that we tell ourselves about ourselves. And that's profoundly healing work as well. And that's, that's a deep invitation that we can all I'll do more cultivating around.

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. I think one of the good ways to get to some of that information is in is sort of via our dreams, really, our dreams hold the keys to our unconscious and all the things that are going on in there, everything we carry, all the things that we're traumatized by. And if we can begin to read, understand, feel what we're being gifted every night or every time we go to sleep, I think we can uncover a lot of what's going on deep inside. And I mean, that's really how I started my investigation, is I was finally able to give up some of this falsity, this falsehood, by looking at what was what I was being told that contradicted that in my dreams.

And it took a long time. I said, that's that's just baloney. That's what that is. But eventually I started to say, what if that's not baloney? What if I look at that as something to contend with? It's coming up every night. What if I think about it and talk about it and feel it? And that started to make the shift and give me some bravery around creating a different space for myself or loving space for myself. Yeah, yeah, I couldn't agree more, Cynthia. I mean, I think that our soul is aching for healing and restoration and is always trying to find ways to get our attention and and let us know what it needs to be held and what it needs to be healed and dreams is is unvarnished, right?

I mean, there's no there's no censoring agents. So that's one of the places where our soul is reaching out, making a bid for, hey, you know, listen, you'll notice this. This is what I need. And and so I had a similar experience with the with the nightmares and dreams I was having through my recovery. And also, you know, the times when you're reading accounts of sexual abuse and you find yourself getting moved and you and crying, that's that's our soul also kind of trying to get our attention saying, hey, hey, there's something inside here that's resonating here.

So if we just paid attention to our own soul in the way that it's trying to reach out for healing through our dreams, through the reactions that we have, through the emotions that we feel in different settings, you're like, okay, what is my soul reaching out for an aching for in the midst of this that opens up a path of healing and restoration? So many opportunities. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, even some of our physical ailments. Exactly. Yeah. We can look at that and say, well, why? Absolutely. Why is this happening? Yeah, yeah. Or in just the bodily sensations that we experience.

Why am I getting so tightened up when I go into this meeting? You know what. What is my body telling me about danger? There's something about this that feels threatening. Okay, so where does that come from? And what about that situation harkens to something that's deeper inside of me? Yeah, because you look at it at face value. Exactly. So our body's trying to get our attention, our soul, through our dreams. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. Really creating hopefulness around change, one individual at a time. And this idea of compassion is just a beautiful thing and, like, chokes me up.

So thank you so much for sharing your life story in a small way with us today and in a big way in your book. And is there also a website one can go to to find out more about your center? Oh, you did tell us to tell us that name again. Yeah. The center for Engaged Compassion icon dot. Com and and your book and your other books. Yeah yeah yeah they're there. You can find them there. Yeah. But I want to express my gratitude also for the conversation, Cynthia, but also for you and the work that you're doing. I mean, it's just so clear that you have such a tender spirit and your own compassionate essence is just palpable.

And and that's that's profoundly moving and profoundly restorative. And that's I can feel that's the pulse underneath these these podcasts and these conversations. And thank you. I'm so touched. It's genuine and it makes a difference. It really that that's that healing presence in the world. So thank you. Thank you and thank you all for being here with us today. Please follow and share this podcast. It's super important. Pass this episode along to someone who might it. This is and now listen to your dreams and live from your.