From Womb to World: How Early Imprints Shape Us - A Review with Dr. Loren Weiner

Transcript auto-generated from the episode audio; formatting has been cleaned up, but wording is verbatim.

Hi, I'm Cynthia Marks. I head up the Holistic Psychoanalysis Foundation established by my late husband, Doctor Bernard Bail. Welcome to And Now Love. We have Doctor Loren Wiener with us today. Her psychology practice is based on the teachings of my favorite Doctor Bail, whom she's followed for many years, many years. Today we are going to talk broadly about Doctor Bail's incredible theory and how it can help us to live our best lives, to be our best bit of humanity. And lucky for us, Loren is our expert. Thank you, as always, for being so willing to share with us.

So really, we kind of wanted to go back to the beginning because we have our fabulous audience, plus new people coming to listen to us and watch us. And we just need a little refresher for those of us who have been paying attention so far, and a pretty good description of what we're doing for our new visitors. So tell us, what is this all about? Okay, well, thank you for having me. I'm glad to be back. Welcome to everybody new and old. Doctor Bail was a psychoanalyst and he trained in what was the normal way then, which was basically a Freudian paradigm.

And he learned this. And what it really brought out for him was a love of dreams. And Freud had a great love of dreams. He felt it was the royal road to the unconscious. And Bail fell in love, basically. He went on to have a Freudian analysis, which means he brought his dreams to somebody and talked about them. He also then, as times were changing, had, a bony an analysis with another very well-known theorist. Yes. And I, from what he discussed with me, those experiences were extremely valuable. And he, of course, respected those individuals. But I think he felt like he had to go through that experience in order to realize that experi wasn't enough.

Like, these are great conversations. I'm learning so much that we have these fabulous intellectual back and forth, but yet there's still this thing that's not. I think he felt he wasn't changed enough. Yeah. So he has a love of the dream. You know, he came out of his psychoanalysis training and his own analysis, and he loved the dream. And so he would ask for dreams and his patients would comply, you know, they would bring him dreams. And so over time, he would shift from perhaps making, you know, more traditional interpretations to starting to say to his patients what he was starting to hear.

Oh, I think that is your mother in the dream, and you must be a baby, right. And and he started to shift. Now, it isn't that nobody ever thought people were infantile, right? But this was really him starting to talk about the beginnings of what he would really come to write about is this very lasting imprint, right way in which we relate to emotionally connect to the people that give birth to us. What he came to see was that mothers actually imprint their children, meaning mothers carry their own, unprocessed, not understood, painful, sometimes conscious, but most importantly, unconscious material.

We are all walking around with both a conscious and unconscious mind, and so the unconscious mind becomes this receptacle, if you will, for everything that happens to us in our life. And you get enough of the painful things, right, because the good things help us. They don't need to be examined. Yes. I mean, we can examine them. They, you know, we'd like to, but it's really the things that get in our way, the destructive forces that we want to focus on, analyze and be looking for. You want to hunt those down. And so mothers don't know they're carrying all of this.

Even if they do, it's unconscious. There's not much you can do about it. But what happens is that this nascent being, this concept, this fetus infant, comes into being inside this mother and becomes the receiver of all of this negative material. And that's not intentional. Harm, not intentional at all. But it happens. And Bail felt that it happens because the fetus or infant, you know, after birth can feel very sensitive, can feel that the mother is beset with troubles. Now, if your mother has troubles, your survival might be compromised, right?

You need a really healthy, good mother who is going to attach to you, love you, feed you, not forget you somewhere, and not be too depressed to get out of bed and make sure you're okay. You need mom to be in pretty good condition, but this baby detects, because of its enormous sensitivity, that everything is not right. What does it do? Well, it sets out with a rather Herculean task. Also unconscious. Right. So we've got the two deepest parts of people, the unconscious pieces. Now in communication in the baby says, well, mom, you have too much trouble.

Don't worry, I'll take it. I'll hold this. Then you'll be relieved. And if you're relieved of all your troubles, you should be happy and able to take care of me. I live, we're good. This is the only way I can survive is to help you. That's right. And all of this is happening in the unconscious. This is all unconscious. So we may imagine. Oh, what's going on? Oh, you got a little morning sickness. The baby's growing and floating around. Okay, that is the tip of the iceberg of what is really happening. That unconsciously there is just this enormous contact.

So this baby does this. Okay, so now we've got a baby holding what you can imagine is like a toxic ball of bad feelings the mother has about herself. All the ways in which she is not good, in which she feels unloved, in which she doesn't feel things were fair. Maybe the ways in which women aren't allowed to have a seat at the table aren't allowed to decide all kinds of things for themselves, or get paid as much, any, any way in which you can imagine somebody, you know, they were beaten, they were cheated on, they weren't loved themselves, you name it, it's in this ball.

Just to pick that apart a little bit. Just let's say take the part where mom feels unloved. Of course. Then if she feels unloved, how is this baby going to feel love from her? So this fetus then says, I don't want you to feel unloved, so I'm going to feel unloved myself. Is that kind of it? Yes, I think it is. It is probably on such a feeling level. But yes, fundamentally that's what happens. The baby looks and goes, oh my God, you're in danger. You have a toxic ball. It might take you out and I need you. I need to survive, so I'll hold it. In reality, there's no difference being made.

There's no difference being made. This is all psychological and really, it's a fantasy on the fetus's part that the fetus could in any way really change the mother by holding on to this. But that doesn't mean all of the feelings that go along with all that aren't taken into the baby. They're taken in. Now, this baby has this toxic ball and it has to do something with it. So it was it off says, okay, you know, you can imagine like an oyster gets a bit of sand and it's an irritant. This is more than an irritant, but you get the idea. And it starts to put layers and layers of pearl around it, protect it.

Now I don't know there's any sand there and it's all fine. And I have this beautiful pearl. So it's almost like you've made it. Okay. Yeah, you've. You've made it okay. But unlike an oyster, what you've had to do is split your mind. Now imagine you've got a bedroom in your house that you've put stuff in. Shut the door. Maybe you've drywall it over the door. Nobody even knows there's a door there anymore. Except it's not quiet. It doesn't sit hidden silently. It is now sending messages. Oh, you're unloved. You're bad. You can't do what you want to do in your life.

Nobody liked you anyway. You're ugly. You're unlovable. You're mean. Is it because we're trying to keep something trapped that's really not trackable? Yeah, that. It's just got to try to get its way out. Yeah. It is. It is so energized that it can't really be contained that way. But, you know, a fetus tries this and this is all what has to happen for survival. And so we are looking not just at the way animals survive in the jungle. We're looking at the way these animals, humans, because they have this unconscious piece which we're supposed to have, we need, but it also has brought us this trouble that we have to understand and we have to get in contact with.

We have to go find the room, hear the messages and start addressing them and start saying to the now grown person who is talking to you, listen, when you were a baby, here are some of the messages that you receive that you have been living with as though they are you. But I want to say now that's not true. That didn't happen, right? I mean, we all want to say, no, I don't. There's that's way too scary. I don't want to open that door. Yes, we have that. Certainly. Who wants to go back? And when you get this ball of toxic material, this isn't like a gentle delivery, right?

You will see dreams of people who are in the process of getting this. You will see dreams where people are hit in the head with boards. Baseballs are thrown hard at the head, jumping off of something high and cracking the head on a concrete sidewalk. You will see actually in people's dreams, a detail of everything, a detail of an imprint, a detail of their life, a detail of their emotional truth. And Bail felt that what you really want to get to for people and the dream is the vehicle. You know, he's going to carry over this love of the dream.

And what he found was, oh, it contains so much more than they ever taught me. So as he listened, the dream just became the focus because it was so rich with all of the feelings, all of the experiences, all of the emotional truths that everybody had been through. And he found that there was this commonality, really, when people were sharing their dreams with him over the course of time, he discovered that it all led back to this mother's imprint. That's right. So he listened. You know, I think he was very good at sort of saying, I have an idea.

Now, let me listen. Let me do my best to listen and see whether the data supports the hypothesis. Trying right not to go the other way where you just make every one of your patients fit into a theory. I think he felt he had tried to do that and it didn't. That didn't feel right for him. You get all of this happening. He very early on. So we are talking now. He has said maybe even before conception, because in his mind we have all made agreements that we are going to come do this together. So the relationship is already chosen before somebody gets here.

So what do you mean by that? We've made agreements before. We he felt that, you know, we all come from source. And so if you come down to earth to live this life, you have come with a certain agreement, certain curriculum, certain things that you are going to work on here. In other words, a reason for your soul to incarnate in this lifetime. And your soul makes a choice. Yes. And for example, what would a choice be? Well, it would be anything. It would be to be me. It would be to be you. It would be to come into the world and have a certain set of conditions that are necessary to learn.

Pick any person walking around on the planet. He would say, okay, those were the conditions you chose. Now, a lot of times people say, but I don't like that idea because I don't like what I chose. Understand, you know, I have great compassion for that. That doesn't mean you didn't choose it. Right. So what we have to then do is get an understanding of why you did and what we will turn to is your dreams. So the dreams are going to be the repository of all of those reasons and choices. And the way we're going to see them is you're going to tell me what was the emotional experience like in my life?

What did it feel like growing up? You know, did I feel loved that I feel hate? Was I beaten, was I adored all of it. And as I said, most of the time, what, because we live in an imperfect place most of the time, it is the things that hurt us, that didn't see our true self, that didn't support us, that neglected us, where we couldn't connect, where we felt misunderstood, maybe where we were even overtly abused. Those are the pieces that show up in the dream that have to be understood by the person listening. You have to find them, see them. You have to make an interpretation that says, oh, here you're talking about this feeling, and you do this in a back and forth so you could tell me a dream.

And then we talk about your dream. We just have a conversation. I get to ask you questions. Tell me what comes to mind when you tell me the dream. Tell me what this part of your dream makes you think about. Tell me what you think about that piece. And I'm listening as your unconscious. Right. So your deepest self is now going to bring ideas forward and you might resist some, but you're going to tell me a story. Just so we're clear. Really, what is the difference between our conscious and our unconscious. One we're aware of and one we're not? So the unconscious is vast.

Think size of the universe. And that knowing of the unconscious is is typical in the world of analysis. Yes. That there is a belief that there is an unconscious. Yes. And that's a big piece that a lot of people don't aren't familiar with, but is imperative for us to know, Bail felt. I mean, it was imperative for him. It was the place where everything happens. We think that the world is our conscious, waking life, and that is a tip of the iceberg piece of what's really going on. And then you have the vastness of the unconscious that sits below, sits below the surface.

But it is what drives everything. And I understand that's really hard to buy into. Yeah, it's nothing but elusive to most of us. And how could there be anything beyond everything we come across in our physical world? I mean, there's there's no room for anything else, it seems. Right? Well, if you listen to people talk and you also really spend time listening to dreams, you would be very easily convinced that there's a whole world people know nothing about. But it drives everything. And people come to see this very quickly. You can see connections between dreams and how you're feeling and how you are carrying these very early relationships.

Right. So our earliest caregivers set the template for all of our relationships in the field of mental health. Pretty agreed upon. Bail is going to go a step further and say, actually, what happens in utero is what sets the stage for everything. And all of this human life we're walking around in is really just a repeat, a recreation of what we experienced in the womb. So what he meant by that was we are so bombarded with all of these negative parts of our caregivers because yes, you are in the mother, so of course you get the mother's full blast, but also whomever is around her, right?

She is sweeping in the unconscious of the father and maybe of other people who are important to her. Those are all swept into. So, you know, we like to think of time in the womb as this bucolic. Yes, lovely. It is, not it? It is more akin to being in a haunted house where things are jumping out at you constantly, where you are. Oh, this feeling, it came at me and that, oh, and that feeling. And and I'm confronted with the fact that my mother doesn't even feel like she can tackle any of this. And how is she going to be a mother and you name it.

Right? So now what is helping to help us? Not all come out, you know, completely a basket case is that. Yes. Hopefully there are enough good feelings as well, but there aren't enough of those at this point in our evolution to stop us from having an imprint, from having these negative feelings and passing those on to the next generation. And that has to be known about. Bail felt that was just the crux of everything is that you have to know this is happening, and you have to know that the only way to fix that in yourself, so you are not walking around completely filled with all of these negative feelings about yourself and then recreating situations, recreating situations that will support that.

Because that's how you survive. That was how you survived. And that's how you continue to survive. You don't know any different. You don't know any different. You don't know it isn't you. Yes. You don't know. It isn't you. And the knowing of you when you get there is incredible. It's just incredible. And this is such an important part of us moving forward. And so few of us have access to real therapy of this sort. So few we need to be able to figure out a way to share this message, because it's the only way we can move forward in our world. Yeah, I think that was his hope.

I mean, you know, his hope was obviously he's going to work with each patient that comes into his office. But his real hope was that, oh, okay. What will happen eventually is enough. People will understand that I have an unconscious. In order to survive, I felt I had to take in all of my mother's toxic feelings. I walled them off so I've been living as though they're mine. I now have a chance to realize, oh, wait a minute, maybe I'm not unlovable. Horrible. Not to be successful, not to live, not to enjoy happiness. Not to find true love, not to succeed.

Whatever it is, I can now start to look at my dreams for kind, where all of these messages have embedded themselves in my daily life and piece by piece, pull them out to get back to my true self before this invasion happened. And what we're wanting is to try to help people know that there is a self. Before all of that happened, there is a whole beautiful self, and that self is what we want to get to, to help change the world. That self comes with purpose. That doesn't have obviously anything to do with that little package of trauma. Okay, so that's a slightly complex answer because yes, that trauma was not innate to that being.

Now the question, of course, is did we make an agreement to come down, get this packet of trauma, because that was going to set the curriculum, that was going to tell us, me, what do I need to learn in this lifetime? What do I have to get over to evolve? But with without this work, without being able to get to the place where you operate from your true self, yes, you're you're not going to achieve what you set out to, let's say. Right. You may not get the big change you want, right? You may not get the big growth you want. And and I would say what we're looking for now and probably some of the reason we have so many big changes, so many upheavals at the moment, just human beings have been pushing and we all have to get to a place now where we get big change that's needed.

We have to change the way we've been doing things for millennia. So if we go back, we've got the mother delivers this toxic ball to a fetus, an infant who then has to wall it off, doesn't realize it is constantly broadcasting negative messages. And there's simple things. You know, as I said, you're not lovable. You're not going to be successful. You can't have everything you want. You can't be happy. Very simple. And her mother and her mother all had their own little ball of. That's right. But now I take it, I wall it off. But in doing so, I cut off part of my unconscious.

So I've cut off a part of myself. And also because I know I'm doing this to take care of her, I have to become her because I am simply, you know, a fetus. What do I know about taking care of a grown woman? Nothing. So to do it, I have to actually become my mother. Can you give me an example of that? Yes. A baby will take on qualities of one of the parents. But let's say the mother first, since that's where we all start. So you don't know it. But you've now ingested this toxic ball of hers, right? So that there's two ways in which you become her.

You take in her material, and then you have to become a mother to take care of your own mother. Well, who are you going to turn to? Your own mother. So you will model your personality on hers. From the very. Beginning. From the very beginning, I'm going to feel about things the way she feels. I'm going to do things the way she does them. Now. This is less obvious, right? We all come out and sometimes people go, oh boy, your child's the spitting image of you, right? We can start to see it. But this goes way beyond just the genetics we will feel about ourselves, the way she felt we will feel about things in the world, the way she felt.

So even if there is a kid who says there's no way I'm going to be anything like my mother or my father, and they think they're going in the opposite direction, are they not really going in the opposite direction? They may, in part. So they may have this wonderful, rebellious or driving spirit that gets them somewhere. I'm just never going to do anything the way my parents did. Right? Well, right. Every teenager's famous last words. But if we look, we have to look at the unconscious. You can't always tell everything. Just looking at the surface, right?

You cannot tell how big the iceberg is. If by just seeing the tip, you have to look at the dream. So I have to go to some rebellious person or non rebellious person and and say, okay, but tell me the dream. And little by little what we find. Yes. Is that in all of your great efforts. And I applaud them to do things your way. Yes. And keep I'm not saying don't, don't try for that. But what we want to do is then get out all of the unconscious ways in which you had no idea you were your mother, you were your father, you were your older sister. What?

We're getting out again are not the things that help you. We're getting out the ways in which they themselves weren't free to be their best self. What was it that held them back? Because you will have digested all of that you took it into. So we have to get to it. So we've got all of this happening. And so what it does, if I have to come out and immediately go to work saving you so that I can live, we set up a sort of master and slave relationship. You are the master. I take care of you. I give that part of myself. I'm no longer going to be me.

I have to be you to take care of you. And I have to hold all of your toxic material. I am diminishing the fullness of my being each time I have to do that. So I get less and less. And so could an example of that be, say, there's a young woman and there's a person she's attracted to a man, let's say, and he is completely intriguing to her. But she says, I'm I'm not I'm not good enough for him. Is that her mother speaking? In that case, would she be stopping herself because she's got to protect that ball of trauma? Yes. Somewhere in there. If if that's what she's saying.

Right. I'm not good enough or if that's the feeling. And it may be a deep feeling, right? It may just feel. Like I'm a I don't. I don't like him. Sometimes we have to really dig down a bit and sort of go, okay, well, what is it? Why is it that person I mean, it could be romantic interest, it could be a friend. It could be a teacher that you just can't, you know, you know something? Well, we have to dig down and figure out what is that? Is that an unconscious message you're carrying? That you are somehow not good enough? Not worthy, not deserving will never be loved.

You know that. They'll find out there's something fundamentally wrong with you. So don't even try it. Because even if you get there, it will fall apart. All of the ways human beings do themselves in, right? Where do we cut ourselves off from a potentially happy life? Success? Getting something we want. That's what we call the internal saboteur. It is sort of the guard. It says, all right, I know there is a ball of toxin sitting back here. It was really painful when we got this. Let's never touch it again. Yes, it might be giving messages but will live with it, right?

You can take the messages. You'll live. They won't kill you. And it was originally trying to save you pain. Why would we ever go back and put our hand on a flaming hot stove? Why? Why would you do that again? Don't do that. So it was going to save you initially, but because you now just have to, you're not touching it, but you've got to listen to and obey. Master slave. I've got to obey my master. My master tells me I'm not worthy. My master tells me I don't deserve everything I'm supposed to have. Now we've got handcuffs, so you get an imprint.

The internal saboteur is going to protect you from it. It thinks it's doing a good job, but fundamentally, because it never lets you touch it again. You are handcuffed and bound. You are a slave to its messaging. This is happening with every single person. And for every single person. It is all we know. I think a lot of us can't even conceive of there being anything beyond that that we are somehow just suffering through that. That's just our course. We don't have a choice. That's again, I guess part of the master slave story. What all wanted the whole world to know is there's a choice.

We now have a way to give you a choice, which is you can look at your dreams, see the true story of what happened, find the pieces from the imprint, all the messages come through them. Undo them and take the handcuffs off. So if this is happening to everybody, and everybody has to be fundamentally put in the position of being a slave, I am a slave to take care of my mother. Parents, right? First we bring in the mother, but then everybody in the family comes in. I have to take care of you. I get crumbs, right? So I work for you and I. That's just how it is.

That's all I know. That's all I know. I don't think about it right now. What happens when that's going on with every single person. And what will happen is because this is all unconscious, we do not know it, but this is the template for how life goes, how the world goes. We will go out there and make sure we recreate it, meaning we unconsciously will get ourselves into predicaments, set up situations that repeat all of this. And this is what's happening in the world. Everybody is repeating all of the unconscious feelings and experiences that they got in the womb, that they got from the imprint, and they go out and live them.

And so as time goes by, this just becomes a bigger and bigger ball of trauma for humanity at large. Right? It's like just rolling into. Rolling downhill, picking up speed and and collecting volume. And through the course of time, I suppose there have always been opportunities for individuals to do something different. We just haven't had the the technology. Yeah. That's right. And now we have the technology. Right. So he was jumping up and down. I mean he didn't really jump on me but right almost. Oh my gosh. Right. Wait a minute. Went when it began to become clear of what this let you now address.

What if you could by listening to someone's dreams, albeit very carefully, making sense of them connected to what they say, trying to build a picture, an emotional picture of who this person is, what happened? What imprint did you get? What junk? What trash have you been carrying around? Assuming it is you? And what if we could start to diminish that trash and free you. In the diminishing of the trash through the course of listening to the dreams? And you see what the trash is? How does the trash then go away? Is it that you now discuss this like, okay, that we see that that's what your mom was doing?

Does the person who has the dream then begin over time to understand. Wait a minute. That that thing is not me, right? And all this time I thought that was me. Is is that kind of how the trash goes away? Yes. There probably many ways in which what you're doing is making space for the human being sitting in front of you. Who is covered in marinating in all of this negative stuff left over from the imprint. So yes, every time you make some piece of it conscious, oh, you didn't know you were doing this just like mom. You thought you were really different, right?

To your point. You had worked so hard to maybe not do it that way, or it just wasn't clear you were doing it that way. But here it is in the dream says so, right? And we are looking at dreams. It could be something, you know, an example of that is sometimes you will have a person in the dream and they'll be doing something right. I was going to the movies and then I met my friends at the restaurant. Oh, right. You go, what's the story here? So sometimes you have to really be asking, well, okay, what were you wearing? And then it'll come up and I had on my mother's pearls.

I don't even wear those. Why was I wearing them little hints like that. But it begins to show. Right. I was standing in my mother's shoes. I forgot she used to wear those shoes I saw. That tells us. Right. What's your foundation. You said I'm standing on my mother. Okay, now we can start to make that conscious. Now you can start to say, oh, I didn't know that. All right, maybe I sound like her sometimes. Maybe I make her favorite brownie recipe. But I didn't know that. Fundamentally, I had formed my life as a copy of hers because I thought I had to.

I didn't know there was a choice. I just took in her troubles. I had to mother her. So I became her, and I went off on my way. Okay, but there it is. Right? So you will begin to get it. Now, those are very simple. Sometimes it is trickier to track down. If you can imagine, there are so many flavors of dreams, right? You. But you just have to listen to the person. You have to talk to them and understand their life, not just the dream. I want to hear everything in your life. Tell me about it all, because I want to make sense of who you are. And mostly not just for me.

I want to do it so I understand you. I want you to do it so that everything that has been hidden to you becomes known. Then you get to decide. As a therapist, you you listen to how your patient describes their life, how they feel about their families, their friends, the world, what they express to you consciously. You know, I had the best family. You know, my mom and dad love me so much and whatever it might be. And then eventually you are listening to the dreams. Or maybe all through the process, you're listening to the dreams and and then do the dreams show you what some of the I don't know if you call them lies or perhaps the bits of trauma that they're basing their reality on.

Right. And then how hard is it to help your patients understand that all this that they've been doing isn't really them, and that this thing that they thought was truth is somebody else's trauma. That sounds so hard. You know, there may be parts of it that are hard. Yes, we have resistance to a lot of these things, but we also have people who are coming in generally because something didn't go right. Sure. Right. So somebody is coming in because they want relief. So there is a part of the person who is saying, help me, right? I don't know what's going on or I do find.

Doc, I will listen to you. Right. You know, you're the expert. All right. Tell me. I can decide whether I like it or not, whether I want to come back or not. Yeah, but let me at least here because I'm suffering. Right? And so, yes, a lot of times people are a little bit shocked to find out that the story they told themselves about where they come from is not accurate in terms of the way their feelings, their emotional self experienced it. And then we have to set about correcting things, because if you want to cure suffering, you have to know the truth of how you got there.

You have to know the truth of your life. The mind likes the truth. So the more truth you can be pulling out from the dreams and saying, okay, but it sounds like this. So, all right, if you tell me this, everything was great, but then you have a dream that looks like the apocalypse. How do we square it? Let's work together to figure out how do you square this. How can we make sense of it. Right. It you know those two don't go together. No. Okay. So if you're really fighting me that much on it meaning this makes so little sense to you. Don't come back.

It's okay. But most of the time what people are saying is. Oh, but this starts to explain why I always sat at the back of the classroom because I felt like I was the dumbest kid in class. Oh, maybe I wasn't the dumbest kid in class. And that's a huge moment to shift that feeling, right? It's huge. Right? And you can imagine each one of us has something right. You know, your place where you're like, oh, I'm not good at this. That's hard for me. I try not to get in those situations. I'm sorry. Please don't make me do this. Right. Well, what if those, as you said, those are really other people's traumas that you've taken in and made you.

What if we get a chance to peel that off of you and see who you are? Then we don't have to walk around. So we're in this master slave position and being in that position also makes us terribly afraid, you know, because we have no control and we are condemned to repeat all of these pre-birth experiences from the womb. All of these things we got from the imprint out in the world. You might do it, I might do it. I'm going to go out there and make sure if I felt I was dumb, then I'm going to go make sure somehow I get myself into situations where I am made to feel stupid.

I am made to feel incompetent, whatever it is now, what happens if we're all doing that? What happens if we set up the world to repeat our terror, our fears, our worst feelings about ourselves? It will do it. It will do it. It doesn't mean there aren't good things that come in, thank God. Right? Like love, we have things that soften the edges at times, not always right. Sometimes it is just plain genocide, War, murder, right? If we're lucky, we get some softness. But that's what we're all doing. We are all out there taking our insides and putting them on everything.

Now, if you want to fix that, you cannot start out there. That's not the origin. The origin is in here. And if we don't all go in, find this and fix this. You can never fix that. We can only make it worse. You'll make it worse. You certainly won't make it better. In each of us. Then we have to figure out how to deal with our wars. Our genocide? Yes. Where did the murder happen? Where? Where did the cheating and lying and stealing. Where did something get taken from me? Internally? Emotionally? Where do I feel that was done to me? That then that gets brought out into the world right now.

And then we have another dilemma. Our leaders, they all have an imprint too. They all went through the same experience. They have to both feel our fear. We will pick a leader who will then take all of this fear that and upset an awful feelings that we are putting out in the world. We're going to elect a leader who will make sure those come true also. So in a way, that leader is protecting our ball of trauma. Well, it is certainly abiding by it, right? It is abiding by our imprints that say we're we only get crumbs and the world. I am only allowed so much good stuff.

Now, do we get some people who sort of, you know, identify with being the king or the queen, which is really our mothers or fathers, the, you know, the person with everything. Well, if you're a fetus who's just taken in all of this, yuck, split yourself up so that you could take care of this other person. Guess who the king or queen is? That other person? Your parent? Your mother. I'm going back to the mothers because that's where we start. I'm going back to the mothers because they carry the children and because they have been mistreated. So they have had more of this put into them also forever.

They were the weaker group. So they're going to have less power, but they're carrying that. So you want to make the next generation of babies feel better. Even if you couldn't go in and analyze all the dreams, give women all the freedom and power to make us equal, give women a seat at the table and you start undoing some of the trouble just there. Any time as a group, if we are putting women down, not anybody we're putting down, but women because they carry the babies. If you are doing that, you guarantee trauma to the next generation. So we have to stop traumatizing ourselves over and over and over.

Start treating women equal. And it seems like through the course of time, there are moments where it appears to be really important that women start to have a place at the table, and then we sort of backslide and that backslide is that coming from us thinking, wait a minute, wait a minute. This is a little bit unknown, both for men and women. I'm not sure we're ready to like, open that door a little bit more. But it's part of the imprint. We don't get this. We don't get to be equal. We don't get to have everything we want. We don't get to have a happy life.

We don't get to make the choices we want to make. I don't get to do what I want to do. I have to be a slave, and we've all got this in us. So we are all going to act this out, right? So we may get a little bit and then, yes, the internal saboteur will sort it up. You're going to break this imprint. We don't do that. I told you that was really painful. Stop. And it's not quite such a nice voice, you know, it gets destructive, right? You're getting too close. Back up. Yeah. And then something will happen, right? It gets undone some forces. Because there even though this is all happening at an individual level, we all come together.

We have a mass unconscious. So we all have this all going on. We are all filled with all of this upset and destruction, and we are putting it. We're putting it on the world out there. Now, that doesn't mean that that is how it has to be. If you can start to know that, start working inward. Go fix it inward, right, so that we are healing ourselves. We are helping ourselves decide we need love and what we're really doing. As we pull out some of this trash, we make more space in our own unconscious. We stop being our mothers, our fathers, other people as much.

So we are also making more space in our unconscious for our true selves. What we get is this beautiful reward. We get a cleaner connection to spirit. And that's really what all of this is about. We have to get ourselves back to a full connection with source. And where does where do we go with that? Or what does that do for us? Gets you everything. If you want to be able to have a happy life in a peaceful world. People have talked about that. For how long? Right way out of world peace. Okay, well, world peace requires everybody to clean up their insides, fix themselves first in each person, connect back with God.

God is not war and destruction. Spirit source, God, whatever you want to call it, it is pure love. And that pure love is really the essence of who we are. Individuals. Once we're unencumbered. Yes, we have it in us now. We are in everything for. Each and every one of us. We are part of the divine. Could we say that you can't honestly give love to others? And until you figured out that unencumbered you? I would say some people can love, but most of us are compromised in some way because the more trash we're carrying, the less room in our unconscious there is for us.

And our unconscious is the pathway to spirit. So the more you mess up this pathway because you're not yourself, the less contact, the less access to pure love you have. I see, so you might have this kind of a wall and a little dribble over here, or it might be fully blocked. Right. These are this is what we're looking at. So you know we're cleaning out. We are cleansing. We are making space. We're clearing this. Path. Yes. We're clearing a path are what we have to do is get back in touch with source. When we are in touch with source, when we are coming from that place of this honest, authentic love.

In addition, then to sort of being able to give love of that same ilk, we're also then able to receive love of that. Right? Because so what's happening is if we're still carrying all of this toxic material or let's say, enough of it, the love you give, you may be able to give some. You probably won't feel you're allowed to receive that much of it. It's all compromised. And when it goes out there in the world and gets enacted, it's so filled with the gunk, right? The trash that you know, yes, it comes through. It's not like we're living in a world where there, you know, there's nothing good, but it's compromised.

And what it doesn't let us do is fundamentally get the political systems, the governments and the earth right to work for us. The governments don't really work for us. At the end of the day, I think most people feel they work for the rich people, but that's what we set up because we don't feel we deserve the right government. If we felt we deserved it, we would have governments who were scared, worried they would offend us by not serving us the best way, by not making sure that their why should anybody in this world be hungry or not have a home, or be struggling with something that they need help with or need medical care and we don't give it to them?

There is something fundamentally wrong with us, but we care about money. There's something wrong with us that isn't a loving system. No, that's super clear. Right? But that that is what we have been bringing. We have all been bringing it. We are now tasked with changing that and saying, oh, but we don't want that world anymore. Okay, then you have to start on the individual level. You have to understand that you are carrying this imprint, that it will make you destructive. Fundamentally, it will keep you. It will make you a slave and keep you from having the good things, the true love, all of it.

You might get a little too. You won't get it all. And we have to diminish that. And then as a group, raise our consciousness as a group. Grow up. Stop being babies who turn everybody into mothers and fathers, kings, queens, billionaires, leaders, whatever it is, we've got them all mixed up because we are the little baby slaves. We've got them all mixed up with parents. And they're basically operating from their baby space. That's right. They'll do what we want them to do because they've got the same problem. They may have a lot of money, they still have an imprint, and we're all mixed up anyway because we make them into mothers or fathers, which is really our mistake, because we make our mothers and fathers into God.

So our spirit. And it isn't the people. We have to fix the entire system and we cannot fix it externally. We cannot fix the system out there. That is a creation of what is inside. Although scary, super refreshing to think that I can focus on healing myself in order to really participate fully in humanity. That's a lot of work and we need a lot of people to be willing to say, I'm going to take this trip. I'm going to find out who I really am, right? Without the likes of you in our lives, meaning that we cannot come to you and sit with you and, you know, have therapy with you, this still seems so worthwhile.

I think we're creating a space where people can begin to see this and feel curious enough about it to find some places where they can get help, whether it's paying attention, attention to this podcast, talking amongst their friends, people can start to pay attention to their dreams on. On some level, they'll never get to the place where they can with you in private. Yes, all of that. My hope is that what people will hear is okay, wait a minute. There's there's a way to think about all of this. There's a way to not have to just panic and feel this is on both sides.

When one political parties empower, one group of people feels panicked. Another political parties in power, the other group of people feels panicked. This is just a hot potato. We toss it around and so one country's at war. Everybody's scared. What? What we're really saying is, okay, hold on a minute. There is a different way to think about all of this. We are not going to come up with a political system or a treaty or any of it. It might hold for a while, and then it starts to fall apart. Bail was fond of saying all empires and they all tumble because it doesn't hold together.

You cannot keep it going. The destructive forces will eventually undo it. So in my mind, really hopeful now because they've tried to do that for thousands of years, it hasn't worked. Oh, wait a minute. But we haven't tried this. We haven't tried getting everybody to understand they have an unconscious, they have an imprint. There is a way through your dreams to understand how your imprint is crippling you, how it is keeping you a slave, how it is making you not have a completely fulfilled life, how it is keeping you fundamentally from full feelings of getting and giving love.

And we can change something. It really is a new opportunity right? It's a new opportunity. This is a different technology. We have plenty of amazing technology, but none of that technology has changed the hearts of human beings. No. It hasn't stopped us from having war. It hasn't stopped us from killing each other. This can. And to that end, we can as individuals on some level, begin to discern the difference between our true selves and our trauma by looking at our dreams over the course of time and and thinking about them and feeling the feelings associated with them.

I don't want to step out of turn in saying that, but I really feel like this is a new opportunity, and I feel that individuals have an opportunity to begin to open their own doors to who they really are. Yes, that's the whole idea is first at least. If nothing else, here's a new idea. Think about it. Yeah, just give it a thought that we are carrying around all of these things that have done us in all this time, and that maybe the souls that are here, all of us have decided this is the time when we don't need to keep doing the same. We'll maybe we get as a group a new experience.

What if we get an experience of connecting to source in a way that we actually get everything everybody says they want? Everybody wants this amazing fantasy life. Look at the internet. It is filled with people trying to convince you they have found this amazing fantasy life where they know how to get it. They could sell it to you cheap. Just come on this vacation or buy this, or wear this lip gloss or go on this diet. But it's what we're all trying to get is this state of being where you oh my God, it's amazing. Right? And I'm not saying that everything has to be only that way, but it's that you have the ability to get there and it is to connect with source.

And you can't connect with source until you deal with your imprint. And in doing so, that process is really I am imagining, at least it seems so for me, a life journey. Yes, but what else are you going to do? Yeah. I mean, what else could you do this more important? Yeah. And more interesting. It's so you. Get to dig in. What are these things? Every night I have a dream. Sometimes I have a nightmare. Okay, great. Then it's really important to look at that one. You have a nightmare. I really want to see what you're dreaming about. Because I want to hear what you want to tell me.

You need to understand. To grow your mind, to free your unconscious of trash. But you're going to tell me every night. Yeah. Unknowingly. I mean, yeah. Unknowingly, but nonetheless. Yeah. How amazing. You mean we have this built in? This is what we're built to do. Over the course of time that I spent with Bernard. Because we loved each other so much, we talked about our dreams incessantly. I mean, it was his favorite topic. And to say, of course. And he knew just what you were saying. This is what we do. What else do we do except follow this path, go on this journey, discover who we are as individuals, then become part of sort of this innate process of, yeah, helping humanity.

And when I began this journey with him, I didn't know anything about dreams. I dismissed them readily and regularly. And, you know, I had this great life and everything was set up the way I meant it to be. And he was, you know, so curious like. And when we would talk about my dreams and, and because I didn't come to him for therapy, he was not my therapist, I didn't come to him with an issue, I had issues, but I remember just thinking that's not what that dream was about. How does how does he come up with that? Know that thing I just told you about yesterday?

That was my perfect life. And you're telling me that's not perfect, but unbelievable. Through the course of talking about these dreams, there's no moment. But eventually I came to say, that's ridiculous. Really? Really. I've been doing this for 60 years and thinking this was the way to do it. I've believed that thing over there was my truth and it was the opposite. I mean, it's just fascinating and so changed the way I get to live my life. I'm, you know, forever grateful. Yeah. But still comes up. Stuff still comes up. And I find myself, though, on my own because I don't have a therapist.

Right. Thinking about my dreams. And I'm fortunate to have this past experience with him. But I can see things. I can feel things. I can still find little arteries that I need to travel down that continue to change who I am. I mean, up until recently, my father's voice was still walking around in my head and I would basically run everything by him. Not consciously, unconsciously. And now I. I can hear that voice clearly and I can just say, no, thank you, right? And don't need to be you. I don't need you if you've already lived your life and I don't have to be a slave to you, I don't have to do everything your way.

So I keep your love. That isn't true love. I mean, just letting go of that one thing is such freedom. So that's the whole idea, is we get freedom. You know, we gain that an imprint really is handcuffs. We don't know it. You know that at least you say, oh, I can hear myself talking to this person most of the time. We don't know. We're in conversation with the person. It's just so innate in us. Yeah, but we know we can't. You know, you're not going to. You're not allowed to operate outside of that. Yeah. That's right. And so you end up in a tiny little box.

Yeah. Well and it's interesting because I don't think I really heard that voice until, you know, the past few years when it was actually almost a voice in my head that I could say, no, no, no, thanks. See, that's what we want. We want to start to make that conscious. So you are knowing that, you know, you're doing that enough that you now you start to hear it. It's been there the whole time. It was just silent and you just thought, oh no, I just really want to go to this school and get this job and work this many hours and marry that person. That's who I am.

That's me. This is great. And never mind. Right. Because most of the time then I'm. I'm having to ignore certain things. Where do I have to then put the denial right. It doesn't feel great or I just don't think about it. Just this is life. Don't bother me with these romantic ideas, but there's some amazing happy life out there. This is just life. Yeah. Okay, well there is. You have to work for it, you know? So I'm not saying that all of this doesn't require work. It does. It requires a lot. And it may be at the moment, just even being willing to entertain this idea.

Just what about this idea? That's a start, right? As a start that you have an unconscious and you have an imprint and you have taken in all kinds of negative feelings and they work against you. You know, people understand the concept of self-sabotage. This is that on a grand level, an unconscious level where you don't realize you cut off a pathway to something good before you ever get there, because you don't feel you're allowed. And we do that as a group and we're going to have to change that. This is the time it is. I have to ask you one more thing that you're so full of all of this information.

You live it, you breathe it. It's part of who you are. How did you come to this? Through a lot of hard work. You know, my father found Doctor bail. My father's a psychiatrist. He was doing his training. He found Doctor Bail, who was working already, and he liked what he had to say. He liked what he thought about. He really believed in it, brought those ideas home. And I grew up with them. And then I thought. I thought, I'll do something else. Let me go do something else. I tried other things and they didn't hold my interest. I wasn't also very good at them.

And so it seemed that that I was going to have to train with doctor bail. I got lucky. So you came to Doctor Bail and trained with Doctor Bail, already knowledgeable of the precious messages your dreams had for you. Already knew dreams were really important. You know, that was like, yeah, I just, you know, that was. That was already part of. That's right. Then I thought, all right, well, I'll do this. I had to go to school and study this. Finally work up my courage to see Doctor Bail because I saw other people. I think my imprint didn't let me go right to the person that had all the knowledge.

That was too scary to me, so I had to work my way up there. But luckily I did. And I think, you know, that's important for all of us to consider that probably this thing that we need to achieve in order to make us whole is scary. Yes, it feels scary. And human beings are fearful creatures. We are always scared. We're always scared. When we separated from source, I think we didn't understand why things happened that we don't know. What is this? Why did that lightning strike? It made fire over there and that volcano erupted. I mean, it's terrifying.

It's terrifying. We didn't understand. And so because we got disconnected and we didn't understand things, all of this fear began to build up. And that, of course, kept us more disconnected. And we've carried it. And it builds and builds and we're all just very, very fearful. Even those that are brave, we're fearful. I didn't understand anything when I was young, like most young people don't. I didn't know much of anything. They said, oh, well, you don't see Doctor Bail go to this therapist. I don't know, the doctor Bail would have had time for me anyway.

He was very busy, but it didn't. In my mind. I didn't have an imprint that let me say no. I want to see him says idea. Why would I go to somebody else? It didn't occur to me I had to grow. Yeah, well, thank you for growing. Well, and then I got lucky. So I got to work with him, train with him, fundamentally learn about myself, figure out what the hell was going on in there, what was stopping me, what was in my way. And look, this isn't like you do this and, oh, you know, done. You never. Yeah. No. And you get to keep doing it. But you know what you're doing, and you have a way to think about yourself in the world and what's going on.

So you work through things. I'm a worker. I like to. Work, and you become interested in it. It's almost as if you can't. And you needed to do all that so that you could have all of your patients come to you. I had to to be a person with everything people go through, so that I can understand what it's like to be a person going through. That's right. Thank you. Thank you, thank you for letting me talk about all this. Thank you for letting me share his ideas and and and explain, hopefully, how people can think about something new and that we all need to do it so that we can all now decide we do not have to be treated as a group the way we've been treated.

And we don't have to treat the earth the way we've been treating the earth. That both need to happen. We don't have to be slaves anymore. So look here. Look here, it's all in here. Everything out there is what has been done to us inside everything. The way we treat the earth is what has been done to us inside. How much trash pollute everything? Well, we've been polluted. So of course we're going to do that. We've been lied to. Somebody says I love you and then they hate you. That's a lie. You don't love me. That's a lie. You. You may wish it wasn't, but it is.

Yeah. And there's a lot of wishing. But it's interesting how these two things mirror each other so, so well. And you can really start to think about what's happening in our world, what's happening. In me, what happened in me such that me and all of my brothers and sisters such that it is now out there in the world. Who am I to not be able to say anything about what's happening in my life, for example. Right? Why am I not in charge? Am I why am I not the master of my own life? I can't do something because you might not like it. I'm not talking about killing you, right?

But I can't make a decision for myself. That feels good to me because I'm worried it might offend someone. Where does that idea even come from? Well, here. Okay, well, we're moving forward, okay? Which means you're coming back plenty of time. All right. I'd love to. Thank you so. Much. Thank you. Thank you for paying attention to us. It's really important. Come back again soon.