From Dream to Transformation: A Therapist's Journey with Dr. Bail's Approach

Transcript auto-generated from the episode audio; formatting has been cleaned up, but wording is verbatim.

Hi, my name is Cynthia Marks. I head up the holistic Psychoanalysis Foundation established by my late husband, Dr. Bernard Bail. Welcome to. And now, love. Hi. Today, we welcome Lauren Dolinsky. Lauren is a licensed psychotherapist with a practice in Los Angeles. She is just weeks away from receiving her doctorate. Quite an achievement. Lauren is an avid believer in Dr. Bail's work. So we have so much to talk about. We do. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited. I don't think we're going to have enough time, So let's see what we can do.

Let's see what we can cover. So the first thing is, how did you come to find Dr. Bail? Yeah, well. I hadn't heard about him. Like most people. I mean, it's. Still. Such a niche thing, and I. Really hope that this helps get it. Out there. man, That's what we want. Yes. So I'll give you the whole. Background of just my. My winding road to get there. Yes, please. Well, to start, I was really raised in. The medical model of understanding all of this in the mind and everything. My. My father was a psychiatrist. yeah. He was like many psychiatrists.

A big believer in medications. Right. And that that kind of gave the answer to the problems. And if we. Could get the. Right diagnosis and fit it with the right med, then you know, we're going. And it wasn't that. I mean, he he believed in. Therapy, too, but it was. Kind of secondary. So in that e once you're properly medicated, you can seemingly live. It looks good. Yes, Right. You look okay. Right? You look okay. What you're really doing right is. Telling that person to kind of shush their feelings. Yeah, right. You're kind of kind of shutting them up a little bit and nothing against these kinds of medications.

There's. There's a time and a place for them, and sometimes they. Help to get. Over something. But what we see. Fast forwarding a little bit in this. Work, right, is that there's actually a better way there's. Better answers than. Just here's a med. So that path didn't work for me. I walked that road for. A long time, and. When you were trying to establish a practice with that methodology. Well, this was before I actually started. Working in this. Way. So this is more like me for myself, getting help for myself and whatever I needed help with in my life.

And that was sort of like, Well, that's the answer. This is what we do. Right? You just you find this medication and then you're going to be fine. In the Med. You know, maybe you talk a little bit in therapy. About whatever is. Going on, but that's not really the thing. Right. So I started. Taking my own therapy journey a little more seriously, and I wanted something different. So I still I had no idea about this work. And it just so. Happened that the first. Therapist who was lovely, who I worked with, she did spiritual psychology. And she was wonderful.

And I think she really gave me the experience of that kind of unconditional. Positive regard, just a really loving. Person. I see. And could you just for a moment a little description of what spiritual psychology might be? It's looking. At things through. A spiritual. Lens. It's really kind of just introducing the idea. That there is sort of. A loving spiritual presence in one's life and that that can be really healing. To lean on that as. A resource. Right, Because you might always feel like you're held and in a safe place. You're held during a safe place.

And I. Think spiritual psychology leans a. Lot on self-compassion, self-forgiveness, understanding that there's. Like this. Loving spiritual presence in one's life. And and that's. Lovely. It is. And that's a lot of what happens in religion. Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The dilemma with it for me is it doesn't go terribly deep. They're not looking at the unconscious. It's not getting into the nitty gritty. Of your your. Personal life and your personal problems. But it's like it's a it's a very loving. Welcoming, warm approach to things so.

Easy to talk about everything. Easy to talk about everything. You're not going super deep and it's a. Lot of self-love. But when you haven't gone into the. Darkest, darkest, darkest places. It for me, the answer in the long run. But it did kind of get me a little more on the path. Okay? And then that's when I also started. I was clear. That I wanted to. Provide psychotherapy, so I was. Going to, you know, go to. School and get. Licensed and start working and doing all of that. So because of that first experience. My first Masters program, I actually.

Started. In a. Spiritual psychology school. But, you know, when they were teaching and they're kind of teaching these. Levels. Of consciousness, when they would. Get to the. Unconscious. They would go, We don't go there, though. It's unconscious for a reason. And they'd kind of leave it. And it always just I. Ended up transferring to a. Different. Program and finish at Masters somewhere else. And then that one had a very unique. Approach. And the beautiful thing about the unions, they. Love dreams and they. Love bringing that dream. So I think.

That I had always. Been interested in dreams, but then studying in that. Way, really, I was like, okay. There's something to the dream. The union, I guess. Is like a as. A treatment. Modality because it's such a rich. And. Beautiful. Tradition. For me, the piece that. Was missing there again, is that. Deeply. Personal. Piece because. They tend to go so. Archetypal. Or amplify things out into. The collective, like the collective. Unconscious. Which that. Can be really great and also. Gives people. Like a sense that they. Have a place in like this whole.

Expansive history of mankind. And plus. They're so great with. Symbols and you start to kind of get into. The abstract. In the dream world. But again. It's missing that personal. So it just so. Happened that as I was doing that program, the the person who I. Was. Seeing for my own therapy that happened to be that they were in treatment with. Dr. Bail. so so just a stroke. Of it was really a stroke of. Fortune. I was not consciously. Aware of his work at. That time. And so did this person bring forth his work in terms of the practice or just in terms of sharing knowledge with you?

A little bit of both. I was. Talking to this person for. Years before there was a. Direct communication of, you know what? Why don't you take a look at Dr. Bell's book here? It was actually because I had a dream. Yeah. I brought in a dream where that person was playing the piano, a concert piano, and they were like, playing brilliantly. It was this beautiful music, and that person was kind enough to interpret. It as, that's actually Dr. Bail. So then I was like, Okay. And then I go down my rabbit. Hole for everything. Yeah. How did this man come into my dream?

I don't even know who he is right? That's pretty wild, right? And how what led that person to say That's Dr. Bail. I. Think they. Probably. Just had a knowing sometimes with a dream. Like, Boing, you. Just have a knowing. You have an intuitive sense. And, you know, I think they knew too. That they were a little newer to the work. And the person who was playing. Masterfully or was. Dr. Bail Yeah, right behind the scenes. Behind the scenes, yeah. Wow. That's that's pretty amazing. That's a hard thing to really absorb. But someone in your position, you've been doing this a long time.

When you say sometimes you just know it and you just kind of into it. That comes over time of listening to lots and lots of dreams, right? I don't know how you do this work without a really. Strong sense of. Intuition, right? It really guides you. And when you've been listening to Dreams for long enough sometimes, and sometimes, I mean, and we can get into the nitty gritty of everything. But yeah. Because sometimes that dreams will come in and you're like, What can I even hold on to? Right, Right. But sometimes you. Do have a very clear. Sense that, you know, you really can.

Feel it. You as the. Therapy, as a therapist. Yes, I can really feel it. I can really feel. When something's happening. And then I go from there and I'm still asking all my questions and want to see where the person's mind is going. But yeah, it's. Sometimes you. Just get a. Sense. So I have a feeling that's what happened in that session. So then so then you were introduced to Doctor Bail. So yes. What sparked you to want to participate in his world? What how did what led you to say, this is, this is it? Well, once I started really. Diving into the theory and learning about imprinting and everything and plus.

Here's. The thing. He also. Brings in the. Spiritual piece. He does. And so there's the term holistic. You said you run that. It is it's holistic psychology, It's holistic psychoanalysis analysis. It brings in everything. And for. Me, it was such a relief. Finally. That the really, really. Personal that I think was. Missed here. It's kind of like can just fly under the radar and we can chase symptoms down and we can talk from the the perspective of one's conscious mind. So we're blue in the face, right? And tell the stories that we know with our conscious mind again and again and again, but can get kind of lost doing that.

Sometimes people. Go, God, I've had years, I've talked about this for years. And it's still there. I'm still talking about. I'm still. Talking. About it. Nothing's changed. Even Dr. Bill said that in his own therapy. Exactly right. Exactly. So this was. Different. Though, because. Then once. All the. Connections are made and you. Have the. Dream guiding a treatment in this way different from other. Approaches I've had. With three, because once I got into dreams, I tried different kinds of. Like. Lenses of looking at a dream and ways of looking at a dream.

And there's so many out there. But this was different. And it. Felt. Different to me. And that and that's it, I think. Right? Is that that feeling? I mean, there's so many, as you say, interesting paths you can go down if you're thinking, okay, I want to figure out what makes dreams important and you can check off all these things and eventually something will make you feel make you go. Yes. And I think that is Dr. Bails work. That's exactly. Right. And it is. So. Feeling driven. Like you need that piece. Yeah, you need that piece to guide you.

It's not so many, especially in the tradition of working with dreams. And you. Start with the Freudian. And the youngins, too. It's so intellectual, right? And it's very stimulating and it's interesting. fabulous. Yeah. And you can really go places. With it in the mind. But once you drop into. The heart. And once you bring the feeling in and once you are looking at the emotional. Story. That comes out in the dreams, it's a game changer. So I knew there was something there. Yeah. So then I just kept on that path. I've noticed in speaking about this work with people in a larger audience.

So there was the documentary about Dr. Bail and now Love. Yeah. And after the screening, some people would seem to have caught on to something just in that, just in that little brief moment of trying to describe the work. And you would almost be like, Wait a minute, wait a minute, There's something I got to catch that thing. It's like I feel something I've never felt before and they didn't know what to do with it. Yes. And I don't know what they did with it. I'd be curious to know. But that led me to believe that this is something that can apply to lay people like myself.

You know, that there is a way to access this. Hopefully, yes. It might be hard without being able to have the fabulous you as a therapist. You mean on your own when you're not in this kind of treat? Yeah, I mean, I know it. Maybe it will be harder for us. Maybe it. Look, it's a perfect world. You have a good guide, right? Who can take you? But for those. Who don't yet. Or just. Don't have. Access to it, just start to get really curious about what you're dreaming. Right? Because that that's really the goal of this work. It's the idea that. There is an imprint in your unconscious and it's.

Buried deep. Down in there and it's creating a lot. Of trouble in your life. Havoc. Havoc, right. And it's sort of like this transmitter, like it's emitting a radio frequency behind the scenes at all time, magnetizing people and experiences and everything that happens in your life. To to. To reinforce. The lies. And the. Bullshit that. It's telling you about. Yourself. Right. That you think are you. But yeah. This is just my life and this is how it is. Yeah, I it there is no other choice, right? Exactly. Inevitable. Right. Inevitable. Meanwhile, I don't feel very satisfied.

I mean. Well, things. Are a mess. Yeah. So first of all. Just knowing that, but then knowing the way. To access. That and start to diminish the. Power of this awful thing is by following. Dreams, I mean, it's such an elegant system. It is. And it's all right there for each of us, you know, every night of our lives. Exactly. So if you. Don't have access. To a therapist. Who works in this. Way, just start writing down your dreams. To start writing down your dreams. See what you see. Just get really curious to. Start thinking about the things in your life, the things that have been troubling you.

Whatever's. On your mind and. See what you see in your dreams. Just get curious. Right? That's one of the things I noticed in providing this. Work is people, especially as they're just. Starting to do this treatment, one of the. Byproducts of it is they have. Like an awakened. Curiosity about. Their own lives. Yeah. Right. And about the people around them that. Got them just asking more questions. Right? Right. And how did this person end up in my life right? Yeah. Do I want them there? Would you just imagine that they're supposed to be there?

Yeah. And it builds connection, too, because they get. Curious about the. People around them. So they're asking better. Questions. And the relationships are getting a. Little deeper. Would you say that something as simple as, let's say I'm writing down my dreams and I find that every third dream I have this idea that I'm sitting in the sunshine eating an avocado with a spoon. If I write that down and start to think about what that means. Yeah, maybe an avocado isn't an avocado, right? But well, I start to think about it or imagine it or dissect it enough to where I've reached a place where I feel something about that, like, my gosh, that avocado is a I mean, is that what happens in a way in therapy?

Like you, you start to think about a part of a dream and figure out what that really becomes, what you hone it down to, to the place where the person can say to you, yeah, I, I really feel that. Yeah. Usually we get ask lots. Of questions about it. I want to hear all. Their. Association and and if. If I. Sometimes the person will come to their own conclusion about. It. But if I have a. Strong sense too. Especially. With my background of understanding a. Lot of the way that might work. Would be why we're coming to you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, hopefully I can provide something.

But and if I can communicate. It. Clearly enough. And if it's right. People tend to. Go, Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so you could say something and they might go very close and then eventually they'll say, That's it, that's it. Or but. I mean, it's so tricky. Because. Sometimes. If, if it is. Spot on and they're going, we have to see are they defended against it, Is there something they're not wanting to hear. Yeah. There's. There's so many different things or maybe I'm missing the mark and we need to tighten it. Up a little bit. And the good. News is, let's say.

We're wrestling with a. Particular. Dream. Let's see what your next dream say. Like, one of. The great. Things. About this work is like. Even if we haven't gotten right to the bottom of whatever the dream you're telling me is, you're going to keep dreaming and it's going to keep us on track. I see. Right. The dreams kind of provide their own supervision. They provide their own pathway and their own guidance, and they'll go, Well, no. This is what. I want to work on. This is what I want to look at. And a lot of times it will confirm things we've been talking about and go. wow, okay, there it is.

There it is. So it's. Providing constant guidance and calibration. Toward whatever the truths about your life. That your mind is wanting to look at and. Wrestle with. Ah. I mean, I'm I'm told I'm totally on board with all of this, but most of us, I think, are like, how could that possibly be? I mean, I just dreamt about these new shoes and I bought new shoes, right. And we I think so much want it to be just super clean, you know, Is that because in the unconscious, we're trying to protect the status quo, even if the status quo is not really okay.

Yeah, look, because what you're. Dealing with in the deepest sense, let's say. You you really follow the pathway of this. Work in that very. Brave way where. You're getting into. The the heart. Of darkness. Of what we're looking at that, first of all, is terrifying. Painful. And what Dr.. Bail understood. Is that it's it's really about survival. It is so primitive. So when you start to monkey with. That. And threaten taking it. Away. Having it be known, I mean, first. Of all, forget. Taking it away, just having it be known, revealing it. That is like it.

Absolutely not. Because the mind thinks that it needs. That to survive. amazing. So so then we in a way, set ourselves up to protect that. Yes. Dr. Bell would have said the internal saboteur. Yes, you have. An internal saboteur. That by all costs. Is going to make. Sure. That we're not monkeying with the imprint, that it just stays in place and it's doing what it does and it does not want it known. It doesn't want its power diminished. It doesn't want it changed. So the saboteur is tricky. Yeah. So you may be presented with a situation that seems super happy, like there's this great bed of roses and you just want to go lay down in it.

But it's. It's not what it seems. Yes. This is so much to try and figure out. And it. Takes. Time. Right. The thing is like. The theory itself about the idea that there. Is an imprint and you. Have this saboteur that's. Protecting it and the way that it's transmitted. And then what happens in your life? That part is simple. But the getting in there and actually doing the work is much more complex and. Really keeps us on our toes because every. Single person. Is so different. Yeah, it's so different. And, and yeah, what you're saying is right in the, the, there are so many.

Ways that the. Person's internal saboteur is going to do what it can to throw you off the scent. Yeah. Right. So yeah it gets, it gets complicated. The treatment gets complicated. What would you hope people would come away with through this treatment? What ends up being the end goal, let's say? Well, that's also case by case. Whatever a. Person wants. Really. For me, I would want people to know that. There is hope. When we talk about this work. Sometimes it starts sounding really grim. Because the thing is, yeah, it's tricky, right? It's hard, it's disguised, it's hidden.

It takes a lot of work to get there. But there is. Another. Side. What was. So important for me in this. Is that there was. Hope and that. Real. Transformation. Real change is possible, a real restructuring. I like to think of it. As the. Difference between a lot. Of therapies will go. In and kind of rearrange the furniture a little. Bit, whereas here we have like a complete remodel, you know? Right. It's a big. Difference. It is. And you went through this therapy yourself before you started treating patients with this. They're 100%. I would never.

Ask. Someone who comes to see me to go somewhere I haven't already been. I see that is probably part of your profession anyway, I guess. For different degrees, for different people. But for me that's so important. Yeah, well, how can you speak to it? Well, exactly. To be able to provide this work, I have to be pretty proficient. In the language of the unconscious and my own unconscious terrain and landscape and what. That looks. Like and how it presents. And that's something I. Take so seriously. And so that when somebody comes to me, I think their unconscious can.

Feel that I get it. And that I know and. Theirs will look. Completely different when it will take me some time to get my bearings into what's happening in their mind and and find our. Way. But, you know, we have that foundation, at least for me, of that. I've been doing this a long time and I get the language and you can bring me your scariest, most terrifying banana's out there, confusing whatever. It. Is. Material, and it's okay. It's okay. It's not going to scare me away. Yeah, well, I mean, just hearing all of this for I think even for a layperson who hasn't begun to think about their dreams, kind of takes the edge off.

Yeah, I think the whole idea is so. No, no, no, no. And hearing that there's it's not all big and scary or doom that you do, you can get through it and. You can get through it and you can get. And along the way even before. Because it's. Also not linear. I mean, in the big picture, in a. Way. You can track the progress and go, okay. There's progress. But when you're in it and you're in the trenches, it's kind of all over the place. So even as. It's. Hard and terrifying and scary and whatever is coming up, you can. Also still have really beautiful dreams.

All the good. Stuff. Can still come through, too. And that's one of my favorite things about this work. And what Dr. Bill. Knew is it's also a pathway to the. Divine. Right. You know. And the goal just the gold of life. It's everything. I mean, the unconscious contains everything. It's so full. Spectrum. Multidimensional, like we. Can't even wrap our little minds around. At all. So if we are blessed. Enough to remember a dream, let's not. Waste it. Right? Let's not waste it. Let's think about it. Let's talk about it. And I like what you said as a reminder that, you know, some dreams are just absolutely delightful.

Yes. And give you some great positive information. Yes. I think that's a little boost for being able to deal with the ones that are sort of more frightening, perhaps. Exactly. And you will get. That. Help along the way. It is not just fire and brimstone. Yeah. And in is that the unconscious trying to help us manage this and that? Okay. I can't just I would scare you. Yes, I would say so. I would say that it's there to help. Right. It's always there to help. And I always feel too. You're never going to be given a dream. You're not ready. To hear them.

Even though some of them you you wake up and go, my God. Yeah, you might wake up. And tears. Are terrifying or paralyze. Common for. People to have the sleep paralysis. I mean, there is some scary stuff in there. But if you're dreaming it, you're ready to start talking about it. And taking a look and starting to understand what the message is. Well. Would you have a dream that you might be able to share with us that we could kind of see how this comes about? You can say, no. I want to think about that. The dreams that I. Was going to share. Today were more They don't really have.

Advanced interpretation, so I might have to think about that and get back to you. I wanted to. Just share a. Couple of gems that showed some of. The good stuff. And some of it for me to what was confirmation about doing this work. I would love that. Thing in this work. So to go back. A little bit, when I started taking this work more seriously and doing it myself, eventually. I. Was fortunate enough to. Be supervised by Dr. Bail. I would. Come in, I'd have. A. Verbatim. Which is basically just a word for. Word transcript of a session, and I'm analog.

So I'd have. It all written it out. And. I would come in and I'd always include. A. Session where. I felt it to be a particularly. Challenging dream, and I needed. His. Guidance. With it. So supervision means that you're going to let's a doctor Bail to talk about a session with one of your patients, correct? He was already in his later nineties at that point. So when I first went I was like, I mean, is he going to. Be really sharp and. Can you even hear me? Is he. Going to. Hear me? How is this going to go? And my gosh. That man and his diamond mind.

The way he could wield a sword of truth, it would just blow your hair back. The way he could talk. About a dream and what. He would. See. Yes. It's it was. Stunning. That you almost can't put words to. It. No. Is stunning. Blew my mind. A dream I. Had. Well, after. Doing this. For a while with he was teaching a class. He was the teacher. And there was a little bit more to the dream. But at one point when he was going to, like, make his big point, he goes and he turns up a. Stereo and it. Basically turns into a dance party. The first. Song. Higher Love by.

Steve Wynn, While. My God. And isn't that what he was all about? It's a higher love. So were you able to share this with Dr. Bail? You know, I don't think I got a chance to tell him. Directly about. It. It would have brought him to tears. But what a dream to be in a classroom that becomes this fantastic dance party with this song that went there. And it's all about a higher love. That's what's possible. In this. Work that I. Haven't seen in other modalities. And it's not that there's not good things in other modalities. Of course there are. This work goes so deep.

In a way I haven't experienced before. But. In that deep darkness. It's both right. It also goes to the purest love that I've ever experienced. But what do you think is different about you now? How did this work affect you? Yeah, well, for. One, and I would say this is one of the best parts about it for anybody. I know myself so much better now than I did before. I have such a. Better understanding of my own mind and my history and how everything that I've been through in my life, how it's impacted me and the things that used to give. Me a lot of trouble.

It's not that. I have no problems in my life. I'm human and human and life is going to keep happening. It's just when it does, I know myself. A little better. I have more grace. I think an openness and a calmness in my own life. Like you said, it's hard to describe the. Changes in there. It feels almost subtle as it's happening. It's hard to pinpoint. And then I came out of this session and I was a new person. Right? Right. It's this sort of tricky. Thing that happens over time, and. It's hard to. Even see. The. Progress when you're in it. Over time.

You come out of it and you just notice that things are different in your life. Right? That you're you're different. And you're like, I'm different in my. Life. And so you have different people in your life or the people you have in your life. You appreciate them differently. That's right. That's right. I didn't think this when I was sort of going through this transition that you're describing. But afterwards I did. And I think in an unconscious way, part of the struggle was not knowing what to do with that hole that was left when I took all of the trash out of that hole.

Yeah. Now there's this vacancy rate. That's scary. That's scary. Is something worse going in? There? Is something better going in there. Am I just emptier than I used to be? Right. Big deal. That's a big. Deal. And I see that in treatment. A lot more people are on the brink. Of. Letting something go in a deep way, not just like mentally, like I need to let this go and I need to change this. And I have these. Stories. That most people know. They have certain stories about themselves that aren't helpful. Or. Limiting beliefs. Or whatever. But when you're getting in there and doing it at.

That level. In the dreams and looking at the unconscious and you see. People. On the brink of it, an enormous change. That is terrifying because like you said. There's going to. Be a void. First of all, you. Confuse. That for love. You sure? For a long time, right. And it wasn't. No, it's it's just all you knew and that was your comfort zone. What are you going to do without it? Yeah. What are you going to do exactly? Exciting part. It's terrifying, but exciting. Right? And you see people all of a. Sudden have more. Space. In their lives and they might take up new things or just.

Have new thoughts. That they've never had. Or just new. Experiences. There's just more space. Have you ever met anyone or worked with anyone who didn't have that experience, who thought something terrible fell into that space? It's a good. Question. What we're describing and. Things so much easier. Said than done. Like it's not. It's a real process to get there. So I've. Certainly seen. Where. It might. Look like there is a release of. Something. But what they're. Really doing is going back. To it. Right? Right. Because that was. Comfortable. It's got such a pull.

It's so hard to really let go of. And again, it's not like this one act. Of you just let it go dream by. Dream right piece by piece. Interpreted portion by interpretation. You're releasing more and more and more and more. But for some people it's very hard because there's still. So much confusion and about. What that really is. And it's function in their. Lives for whatever. Reason, because of their own personal story and personal. History. They they have such. An allegiance to. It. Yes. And most of us do. By the way, when we get started in this.

We have a very powerful. Allegiance because. It's also a. Representation of our. Parent. It's mom, it's dad, it's our whole lineage. Everything's good. I'm I've had the best race upbringing, right? And that's the thing is we get a lot of people who. It's not like everyone I see has some. Really profound abusive history where. You know, where it's. Obvious there are. Some. People where they speak kindly about their. Parents. They think they had. A good childhood. It will surprise people. Sometimes. To see how much garbage there still. Is in there.

And it's not that they were wrong, that their parents. Were terrible people. They were doing the best. They were doing the best they could. But there was so much that their parents had in their. Unconscious. That they. Were up against. That then trickles down to trickles down. The offspring inevitably will take it on because they want to help. Yeah, they want to. Help and they need. To survive. But meanwhile, while they think they're helping, well, it's an unconscious thing, right? They're really not having any true impact on the unconscious of their mother or father.

That's right. That's right. But fantasy. It's a. Fantasy. It's a bit because what is a fetus going to do? How is a fetus. Going to help? How is a. Baby going to help. Where they can't really help, but it's what they decided. Unconsciously they're going to do. And then that gets reenacted. Throughout the life. And this looks different for everybody. So I don't want to generalize too much, but oftentimes people. Go through. This wanting to. To help. In the wrong way. But but it's and it is based on the unconscious needs or anxieties or stresses that those parents had.

So so what I feel I need to protect is different than what you need to protect. Exactly. And it prevents that person from getting to. Really. Be themselves. Because they've already contorted whoever they are. Organically and who. They're supposed to be to take. On this. Job that that. They're not even aware. Of. And so that's one of the things, too, when you ask about a change in my life, I get to feel more like me. Yeah, right. I think through this work you reach a point where you truly know the you. That is you. Right? Because that's that's sort of an intangible thing.

Well, yeah, I am me. What? I would. I know that this isn't the Mimi. Well, and then. And then your dreams. Will tell you. Yeah, right. And then. And then we go right then that looks more like Mom and more like that. So this. This higher love. When we get to the place where we're really who we are, is that that love? And then is that love potentially that part of us that is connected to spirituality or is that spirituality? Those are great questions. I me personally, I think so. I think. When we're. Are real is real, is true, is true as self, we do have that divine.

Spark inside. Of us that is pure love. And we. Feel it. And we have it to to offer freely to the world. And very differently than maybe the way in. Servitude as we. Were under the imprint, you know, where we're just giving giving but more from an empty cup. Yeah, but we think that's love. We think it's love. It might be martyrdom. Ourselves or all these other. Things, but when we're. Filled with that real love and as ourselves, that just feels. Different. And it's so. Natural, right? It's such a relief for people. People start to feel. Even if they're not talking about it in this way and whatever language they use and they don't have to be.

Spiritual. I have. Plenty of. People. In my practice who are not. Spiritual people. The relief still. Comes, right, and the knowledge still comes and and just. The idea that they get. To be more relaxed into who. They are. I mean, this is a lot of work to get to that place. As you see progress being made, then you're more interested in working harder, let's say. But then when you get to this place where you are, this true being your your own true self, I think it's as you say, there's no work to that. It's just yeah, I mean, it doesn't mean that you don't have to continue to work and that your dreams aren't still showing you some of the things that challenge you.

That's probably lifelong. Never ending. Never ending. But the idea that you are this person, your real person is sort of the easiest thing to be. It's much higher than having to live according to this imprint. That's right. Because it's not you. Exactly. You're so much more natural and things around you just. Get a little bit easier. Life gets a. Little more pleasurable. It's much more organic. And again, it's not that there's not trouble. Of course we're. Human. It's just a different to it. And so that's one of the things too, for me, someone providing this work, I'm never going to stop diving into my own dreams and going as deep as I can all the time because I.

Feel it's a job. Requirement. It's a prerequisite for. Me providing this work and doing my. Due diligence for. Continuing. ED It's my continuing ed forever. That's not to say that someone who comes to this treatment has to be in treatment forever. People can get to a point where they. Feel satisfied, like what you were. Describing and feel they can just carry on in their lives. Or their work with you is a big enough gift that they can, on some level, kind of continue the exploration on their own. They've had enough experience with you and seeing the results, right?

Can write down their dreams and say, okay, I see where I'm going here. That's right. They're interested enough. It's not like you're just going to walk away from this. You realize that this it almost becomes a way. Of life because you do get. Constant guidance from that part of your mind. I mean, that's the. Beautiful. Part of the unconscious, is. That it is just a repository of truth. It's just. Going to keep telling you the. Truth. The hard part. Is figuring out how. To read it. Yeah, right. Because it can be so convoluted and. So. Hidden and crazy and all the things that it can be.

And that's where Dr. Bell came in with the Golden Keys. He he knew. How to. Navigate. He did. When people come to you, are they coming to you because they know the way you work? Most of the people. Who find. Me are. Word of mouth and they've. Heard. From someone else that I've worked with. And so. They're curious about. It and they want to give it a. Try. So that's the majority? Yeah, that's the majority. I mean, every once in a while there might be another pathway to find me. And it's. Really you will see if that. Person wants to stay and talk about their dreams.

Someone's not looking for that. It can be like, What are you talking about? You know, and it's not one of the modalities. Du jour that people. Are more actively searching for, although my hope. Would be that this is a little. Better known soon. And so that so yeah. Ultimately the idea is that we, like people like me, would have enough information about this or at the very least a super strong curiosity. Yeah. And start to ask questions amongst our friends or say, you know, what do you think about your dreams? What's happening with you? And maybe that person over there says it's just a silly reminder of what's going on every day.

And the next person says, no, I know it means something else. I don't know what it is. And those of us who are fortunate enough to be able to have some of therapy might bring this back to our therapists who are not practicing as you are. Right. But if it can happen in such a way that those therapists have to say, I hear you, what does this mean? Yeah, and they do some research. Ultimately, there should be a whole institute at the very least. At the very least. Where? From your lips to God's ears. Do you see how that happens? Well, give me some time.

I Yeah. I don't know, But I think something has. To happen because there is so. Much. Gold here. It's like untapped. And I'm a. Part of all these therapist. Communities online, people from. All. Different backgrounds and not people. Who do this work. And I. Hear so much of therapists who are. Lost in their work. Who there's. An issue they're having with a certain patient and they don't know where to go. And so they're looking for help and they go, I don't know how to address this. I don't know what to do with this. I don't know what to do with the situation.

And when you have the dreams. You don't have to. Feel lost. You always, always. Have a map. You have a road map, you have a North Star. It's there. Yeah. That you can come back to. Right. And it doesn't mean that there's not moments in the work, in the treatment. Where you go, Whoa, okay. Like this is. It's getting money, it's getting murky. But so long as. And look, sometimes the dreams get shut down for. A little. While and. That's a part of it. And we have to. Look at. Why and what's. Going on, that there may be a period of time where someone says, I can't remember my dream. absolutely.

Happens all the time. And that's fine, right? That's fine. And it's but it's by design. Sure. Once we understand. Why. And let their mind relax enough to know. It's okay to go back there. The faucet turns back on the internal saboteur. It'll it'll shut the water off. It'll shut the faucet down because it goes. No, you're getting too close. You're getting too close. All right. So there's plenty of times where there's no dreams and it's not a problem. There should be plenty to talk about. And the unconscious speaks in all kinds of ways. So it's not like we can't access the unconscious.

Without. A dream. Like, it's. It's everywhere all the. Time in everything. So, for example, where else would you find information coming from the unconscious? just in human interactions. If people. Are telling me about interaction they. Had, you can if you're. Listening with that. Ear. You can start. To get bits. From the unconscious just in there. Or or it. Could be more abstract or people can have. Little. Synchronicities in their lives or things they're noticing. I mean, the unconscious. Is everywhere. All the time. So you start listening to it.

It'll show up. It's the. Reason why we focus so much on the dream. Is it is just the clear. You're getting us. Right there. Right there. Direct access. Direct access. Unlike anything else when you're just hearing daily. Life. Stories and all of that, you can you can still. Get. Glimpses. Of it. It's just it's. Different than getting the full message. It's just an umbrella movable giant. It's so expansive. I mean, I can't even imagine how you are able to connect with all of this. It's that's the fun of it. Must be. I mean, I really think that you what you do must almost be addicting.

Like, I just can't wait to hear more and learn more and find out more about people and the unconscious. And it's. Humanity. Thing like I because you never get to. It's never a dull moment because I never know what's going to be brought to me in any given session. And there is no. Formula that. We can. Apply. It's such. An. Art. Of working with a dream. And you have to have not only my own experience of diving into my own dreams and really understanding that terrain, but then of listening to other people's dreams, so many years and years of that.

And with the right guidance and with the right help, and then. You start to get your sea legs, then you start to. Know what's happening. But even then, I'm. Surprised all the. Time. Like every session. I. Have to. Have that beginner's mind and go, I don't know what they're going to bring me. And I have never heard the same two dreams people might have recurring dreams and recurring themes in their dreams, but no. Two people. They're not going to bring the same thing. And even if they bring similar themes, it's going to have their own unique. Story to it.

So there is just it's so rich. And it is. So. Individualized. And that's where the art form comes in. Yeah. Well, you and I were talking earlier about symbolism, and I think I was asking you about, don't we all have our individual symbols? And you said yes, but there are things that kind of show up that mean kind of the same thing for everyone, but how they out in a dream is the individual part. That's right. That's right. That's why I. Have no problem with people looking at like a dream dictionary. Or something. They look up like, had. My teeth.

Fall out. What does that mean? The problem is that's not going to take their. Individual. Story into account. But like you said, though, that. Doesn't mean there's not. Collective themes. So a lot of times when someone is starting a treatment, you might. See a lot of. Common themes. The ones I. Get a lot is a lot of people. Being lost, you know, in various ways. Maybe they can't find their car. They can't find their phone. Their phones not working. They're in the dark. There is. No light. I see a lot of that. And you really see how hard it is for people.

I can see just from that little bit. I mean, it just kind of pulls at my heartstrings. But it makes me know that people that are literally lost. Their lost her life. I know that this type of work is as we talked about it, but it only has a left that big of a following yet for you to talk about this here. And I'm so proud of you for taking part in this. Is there something uncomfortable about how your peers might perceive this, your peers outside of Doctor Bill's work? That's an interesting question. Dr. Bell was shut down constantly. Yes. I mean, he was not literally shut down because he kept going, but everybody wanted him to just go away.

I will tell you a story that shows. How I don't know. Threatened people are by the dream. So as you mentioned, I'm almost done with my doctorate. So I had to write a dissertation and doctoral dissertation. And of course, this. Is what. Interests me. But as we know, it's not like there's tons of research out there on this. And you have to pick a topic that. Is going to. Work to be able to complete the degree. But I. Love dreams so much that I. Was like, okay. How can I include. That? And I. Have a real thing for spiritual. Dreams, and I'll have that one that.

I'd love to share. Yes, but that kind of. Guided me into, okay, well, maybe I can write. About spiritual. Dreams. There is. Plenty of dream research. Out. There and we can bring in the union perspective on this or whatever. And so my committee and my. Chair, they were like, okay. Sounds great, sounds good. And so I spent over a year putting a dissertation writing about spiritual dreams. And every. Step of the way. I had my committee. Approval. And then I had to submit it to the institute and they wouldn't let me. Study. Dreams because. It. Was unscientific.

Outside of the mainstream, dreams cannot be. Studied. That takes my breath, right? trust me. it turned into such a mess and I had to start from scratch. my gosh. I mean, I find that unbelievable, isn't it? Unbelievable. Especially when the whole point of. Research is. To find something. New, right? To go outside the mainstream. We don't have to prove what already existed. Exactly. I'm so sorry. Thank you. Yeah, that was. That was a while ride. So did your revision somehow get to have something to do with dreams? No, they wouldn't allow it. They wouldn't.

Allow it. Into me. I just wanted to complete the jury. I did get to keep the spiritual peace, but they. Just wouldn't have the dreams. I mean, that it. It gives me goose bumps. And isn't it wild that they let me keep the spiritual. Yes. I don't know. This dream. That's I can't even imagine frightening. The people. Yeah. Right. Because if you have to start to think about them serious early, then all that crazy stuff you've been. Dreaming means something, right? That can be scary. Because you might be. Dreaming some wild stuff. And it means that doctors that were, you know, making these decisions for you, they have to start thinking about their entire world differently.

And that's huge. I mean, it's consciously and unconsciously. Yeah. Because once you start getting in there, what happens is everything gets turned on its head. Right? Right. Like everything that. You thought you knew about yourself. In your. Life, you have to. Go, my God, Yeah, Maybe I know nothing. Right? And what could be scarier? What could. Be scarier? Unconsciously? I think people sense that, and it's much easier to go. Know. That crazy dream stuff. Like, what are you doing? Right? For sure. When I went through. That, I could really relate to Dr. Bill because I know he got that a lot.

And here you are. So thank. You. Yeah. So this other dream that you're interested in sharing, do you have time now or. Yeah. Okay. And this is during that always makes me very emotional. Again with you. Yeah. I don't have a. Christian background. But I. Had the dream on Christmas and I happened to be in Paris. The dream was that. These doves. Descended. Straight from the sky, like. From the heavens. And they made this diamond formation and they had these. Glowing like golden white bellies. And I just knew immediately in the dream. I was like, these.

Doves came straight from God. And they come down and then all of a sudden there's children everywhere. And these children have the same glowing. Eyes as as the doves. And it's the same thing I have the knowing that they came. Straight from God and they're here to just spread love. And this little boy comes up to me and he gives me a hug. And I'm filled. I couldn't. Even describe. It. It's the most like gold and honey, pure love. And I've ever felt that it actually it woke me up right away. And my thought was, my God, this is the rapture. Like, I thought I had died.

I never felt anything like it. It was just so all encompassing and so pure. And it wasn't until this. Week when I was. Thinking about having this. Conversation with you. That I thought back to that little boy and realized that his eyes with that, like, glowing like the doves, that they were electric blue. And we know who that was. That's Dr.. Bell. That's Dr. Bell. Unbelievable. Yeah. And that's the higher love. right. That's the higher love. That dream with, like, the best Christmas present ever. Sure. How long ago did you have that? Had it in 2019.

Recently? Yeah, recently. Have you had any other moments in your life, consciously or unconsciously, where you felt that kind of love again? This one was so powerful that I don't. I have not even and I've had some beautiful, delicious, wonderful experiences, like wonderful. And I don't think anything has compared to what happened in that dream. That's how powerful it was. It was truly. An experience of coming back to. God. it's that ineffable. Like, I don't even know how to talk about it. Yeah, well, you've done it a job, and obviously it's so very deep and meaningful.

It's. Yeah. I mean, to date. That's the most powerful dream I've ever had. And such further. Confirmation for me. About this work and what we're here to do. Because I feel like whether you're spiritual or. Not. We're all God's children. We all came straight from God. We all came down in that diamond formation and we came here to love and we came here to give those hugs like that kid. And we have to find our way to do it, whatever your purposes, whatever that way to do it. Why don't we spread that love? Well, and that is one of the most beautiful things about this work is is being able to unconditionally love other parts of humanity that that said, beyond ourselves, we're now capable of helping humanity move along in a loving, supportive direction.

That's right. True evolution. Yes. And we're not spending our lives protecting ourselves and our opinions. Yes, but gracious. Okay, let's see. You just boil it down to the basics. If study your dreams enough or you write them down and you then start to remember your dreams and maybe someone has a dream that is similar to what you've just described in their own arena. I mean, just that little bit alone is such a blessing. Just to have that feeling to know that kind of love. It's it takes your breath away. It takes your breath away. And I've had a couple of dreams that aren't like yours, but are similar where I just thought to myself, I cannot believe that I feel this kind of love.

That's right. This. And it had to do with being hugged in the most delicious, luscious way. I didn't want it to ever go away. It was So there's that. There's that, there's that. And that makes getting through all. The horrors. In there worth it. Yes, because that's that's what's on the other side. And you can start to see that that is how you can, you know, live your life. I mean, you might not feel that fabulous glow. Of 27, I'm sure, but it's there. There and it's driving you and you know that that's what you're here to do. Yeah, right. And you can come back to it like that dream was such a gift.

Because if I ever need it, it's there. I can go to it. Right? Right. You can. You can conjure up those feelings. Yeah. And it might not. I might not have the feeling that strongly, but I just know that it's there. And I'm reminded. Of what I'm here to do. That's such a such a gift. And I mean, we are human. We're different than all the other creatures on this earth. We are. This is one of the things. Or maybe the biggest thing. Yeah. And, and we've also made a humongous mess of things like you look out into the state of the world and it's crazy.

It's time to straighten it up. Wars, genocides, all the violence, the crazy things. Let it happen in the dreams. Let's address it there rather than acting. It out in the world. When people get the really scary, horrific terrible. Stuff in a dream, I go, Thank God. Because let's work on it there. Let's put it there so that. You don't have to live in. Hell. I love that little aspect of it. That's a really good way of putting it, because one wonders how you can stop this from happening, but you focus on it in your dream and you take care of it there before you do harm to each other.

To our world. Don't go. In that. That hell out there, Right? Put the fight in the right place. Put it in the right. Place. And then we can come to the world with love. That's right. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I would love to have you back again. There's so many more things to talk about. Absolutely. You're amazing and delightful. And I even have so many more questions. And I thought I knew a lot. Well, we'll have to talk more. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. And thank you so much for joining us today. Please join us again as we talk to other fabulous experts.