From Darkness to Light: Stephen Kalinich on Art and Healing

Transcript auto-generated from the episode audio; formatting has been cleaned up, but wording is verbatim.

Hi, I'm Cynthia Marks, and I head up the Holistic Psychoanalysis Foundation established by my late husband, Dr. Bernard Bail. Welcome to and Now love and welcome to Stephen Kalinich. Stephen is a marvelous poet, songwriter and painter, and he seems to handle all with the same level of passion. Stephen's imagined Asian thoughtfulness and wish to continue to grow are ever present in all facets of his creative endeavors. Stephen was a patient of Dr. Bails for several years. Through his work with Dr. Bail. He was able to make great strides and found himself living a life that could not have otherwise been.

I know that he is very grateful to have had this precious opportunity with Dr. Bail, and we are very fortunate to have Stephen here with us today. He is going to share some of his journey toward healing and the aftermath of that journey. Hello. Hello. Thank you for coming here, my good friend. You too. Thank you for everything. So to start off, if you're comfortable, let us know how you came to find Dr. Bail. And what were you searching for in terms of emotional help? I'm trying to think who the first person that told me about Dr. Bail. And it was Dr. Wiener and I used to go to this bakery, and he would always buy a lot of bakeries.

And he was telling me about the dreams and he said, You should go to my friend Dr. Bail. And one day I just did it. And I went in and that was the beginning of an incredible relationship. I was pretty I'm a songwriter and a poet, too. I was pretty stuck, not necessarily in my career, but just not knowing what I was going to do and not feeling I was getting enough recognition and things like that. And with Dr. Bail, almost immediately, I felt a real connection, really. He got me to see clearly that in my own poems I contained a lot of the answers that he was talking about that how some things I got out of at the first one.

Am I trying to please Steven or myself or God or my mother? When I thought of the the mother relationship and the mother's signature and all that or someone else, and how much of your life are you really doing? You. And he unlocked that door more than anyone. And I realized there's no barrier at all there. And I got a clear insight into it. When he talked about you not doing you, what did that make you think about? All the peace poets and all the things in the world. If you don't go back to the beginning as far as you can, and not only does it go before birth, and I thought, if I'm doing things to please my mother, my friends, whoever it brought up to me, I'm not doing myself that I have to overcome or not let that take me off base and that no matter how much I did of it or how much we talked about world peace, unless I would go back to the beginning, that original sin might be just a DNA that's still before your birth or something in there that masks, which is really the mother signature, that mask as here, they say you have all these things.

Your original sin could be the mother's signature. Could be and it could be something like that. Instead of thinking you could never get better that it's before you were born. And it's even most of them went down to, what, six months to whatever. My ex-fiancee was a psychologist, a good one. So I read all her book that everyone you know, I didn't know what I was reading was wrong. But Dr. Bail, I felt a clear path. From the beginning. Pretty much after a few months. But what when he got quieter, when he couldn't talk as loud, he would always say, Go to the source.

And that's before the mother signature. And by doing that, I have a direct connection. Whatever that original sin, whatever that mother's things are, I can break that. And all great art and all great music comes from a source. If you don't want to call it God, call it Spirit, call it the consciousness that moves through all living beings. So my poetry was informed by a lot of that. I think all the great composers come from that. Now, you don't have to call it God if you're want to be in it, not whatever, but whatever that is, is the prime mover that moves through all living things, creatures and through man.

If there's going to be any world peace, it has to come by going before a mother signature because. You have to feel a true peace within. Yeah, well, if you're not, feel the true peace. As long as you're carrying the weight of the mother's signature or that whatever, that deep unconscious, whatever you might want to call it, that's my view actually. Let me say it. He pulled it out of me without pulling. Which is the is the most fabulous thing. You had some you can. Rest on your own. That through my art and music if I don't always give Steven all the credit.

Well, it's just a big deal in this town of being a celebrity or this and that like that. You're something special because you're a celebrity. But what he taught me is that everyone has the potential to be special. Everyone has a beautiful soul if they get to it. And they will not be as ABBA rated wars, hatred, killing, all that come out of a misconception of what a self is. Yes. So a self is a naturally selfish, awful killing and that's what you need to get had. A self can be cooperative and help, but we also need principle. You can't just go along with everything.

You have to stand up for certain things. And Dr. Bale, like when he stood up with a lot of psychiatrists against things, you have to be willing to challenge. Because when people have something established, especially when it's making money, whether it's a medical system, whatever, they fight like hell for nobody to change it. Even though they say they're open, they they think it's true and they don't want change in progress. They want it to stay because maybe one day you won't be the one in control. Someone else will come up with something better.

But it's still in service of the self. Yes, money can be such a motivator and power can be such a motivator. But both of those things take us away from who we truly are and don't let us bring our gifts to the world. We can't help humanity in that way. Did you find through your work with Dr. Bale that your poetry, your writing, let's say you were working on a piece about world peace. Maybe in the past, would you say, Well, you know, what will my friends think of this? Or what would my mom say about. I used to think about that. But I think with Dr. Bale, that was when I got the clear sight.

It's okay to want for myself as long as I want for humanity. I don't have to stop the self or become the non self like in some of the teachings, or burn my body or anything like that by increasing myself to include all other beings in one consciousness. In that moment is where answers may lie. More answers to the problems of humanity. And the reason we've never been able to do it is because of that mother Sin is probably the greatest problem on the planet, if you want to call it something else. Aberration, holy sin person, whatever. Unless we get clear and unless we realize that which I believe a lot of people don't believe it, but I believe that there is what I call a goodness and something maybe not on the terms as humans think, but that also has principles.

Goodness has principle. You don't do bad things to people, you don't kill people, things like that. So we all have that in us. Yeah, we all have that in us. And I think that's what's holding the world back since the beginning of time. And I think it's ever been addressed. And that's what I think. What's special about Dr. Bale's work for me and I found practical ways like if I get really angry because my ego gets wounded now, I can breathe then and say, I don't have to please anyone I did do wrong there. I have to, first of all, forgive myself and then understand if the person doesn't forgive me.

A lot of people when they don't want to see me again, a girl or whatever, a woman, and I used to keep writing to her anyway, but I realize you just let it go. Life will work it out. You know, things like that. That sounds simplistic, but also to be realistic that you do have to take steps like you can't say, I'm just going to get it to have the good flow into. You've got to do the work too. It's a lot. Isn't that true? Like even in your field or whatever you're doing, you've got to do the work, whether it's write the song and be open to what the universe can move through.

You. And if the less you give yourself credit, I feel Dr. Bale helped me that I think that's one of my suits and I don't always have it. As many people will probably tell you I'm aware of it. But to give the credit to grace to the inner workings of a soul, not somebody out there in the sky, but something within us that we haven't unlocked yet. And if we can unlock that, we have a chance to to go and overcome a lot of the darkness. And you've done that. And some of it I've done. I think it's kind of our life's work. It is our life work. And I realized that it wasn't enough for me to write the poems and, you know, get there.

And I have a good ego and feeling good. I'm good and feel like I'm doing good for humanity. But until I can actually live the words I write, till I can live the goodness and kindness and terms. When I see all the starving, hungry people in the world, it's not simplistic to want to help people, but I want to help myself too. But I think that it's hard to get to a point where you can really care that what you do for others and ultimately affects you. I'm having a hard time with the world situation now. A lot of people are. I know no one wants to talk about it are very few, but what is the way?

And we do need some kind of a morality, some kind of right or wrong. We do. It's not all ethical relativism to me, but I can't explain it in terms that everyone can understand. And it's not all intellectual where we need to work with our feelings, with yeah. With our feelings and our emotions and besides emotions and feelings, I think there is a some principle which might be before at the beginning. In the beginning was the word that citizens are scriptures. But if we translate that for in the beginning is the word, not for Christians or Jews or anyone, but just for all beings and all people that that that is probably where some of the answers can start to emerge.

But we have to do it out in this world we're living. In, but we have to figure out how to do that within in order to be able to do that well outside. Yes. And we have to not only be good and get applauded for what we do, we have to really want to have, I think, care for others. I think humanity. Well, I think if we can undo the trauma and we can't probably accomplish all of that in our lifetimes, but the more we do that, the more we I. Think we all sit on beds of trauma that can explode at any minute. I think of the people I tried to stay friends with that just tell me anything to do with me.

And I now I know I breathed that kind of laugh. I said, my God, I feel so bad for what I did to them too, to just let go of someone. You don't need that I'm even rethinking of. Maybe, but a lot of people won't like this, but I'm rethinking that. I don't need to have everyone know me on social media. If the work that I do is good, I will. I'll be okay. It feels like I will be anyway. I know that's a hard position to be in. What about social media? Do you not like in terms of your exposure on social media? It probably could be used in service of good.

But if I could learn to promote others, like I want to promote myself and I realize that there's so much of, I did this, I wrote for the Beach Boys, I did a duet with Paul McCartney. Things that I have done, it doesn't make me any stronger or better. I'm, I'm happy for it, but it's not, you know, like, whatever it is, there's no there's no place. Just do your work and try to be a good person and and allow others to be good to it. You don't have to get all the attention. No, but those relationships do speak to a certain level of creativity that you have.

Yes. But when I realize my creativity from my viewpoint, I feel that I'm aided inwardly in a way that I cannot express in full terms. When I hear the great poetry teachers and this person is the great and this person is the great, I want to learn for myself what resonates, what stirs me. I see what is your great, what you perceive. And what do other but also allow that other people may have a different view and try to listen to theirs are not forcing my way on everyone. Like if it's going to hurt a lot of people, I don't think it's a good thing, but I don't know how to set the parameters on that.

Well, and there's a lot of that happening on social media. Yeah. So I want to be more careful and more thoughtful and I try to want to not make people feel belittled or that I'm more important. Can you talk a little bit about how the process worked for you in Dr. Bales office? Did he take some time getting to know you? Did he come to you asking for dreams right away. Through the dreams as well? How? I brought up the images about the art. I should have said that first. First, as we explored the dreams. And he would tell me there's light in that dream.

Or when my painting was really dark and light was emerging and he saw an orange or a yellow coming through a black. It's like I was dreaming these paintings sometime. And by me wanting to dive into colors. So instead of just the words world of peace, I was starting seeing oranges and yellows and blacks and how much I had all the colors and which ones can express and which ones. And what about why do they always have to look like a person? Why can't they be shaped like the galaxies? Or why can't why does art have to be that perfect? Like a perfect?

Why can't it just be what it is? How children do when they put a hodgepodge of clay or like that, allowing that part of creativity? There's a destructive part that can come by, like not limiting people in any direction either, You know, I'll go, honey, explode with those and your kid blows up your house or something like that. I don't condone that. Thank you. But I'm being funny. But you know what I mean. Yeah. When you would come to talk about the colors you were seeing in your dreams, would Dr. Bails say so? Tell me, when you think about the color yellow, what does that bring to mind for you?

He didn't talk that way with me. He would, like, try and get more from me. And then it came to the point where it almost was. He almost said, It's spirit, something to that effect. When you get to the point where you're turning it to this invisible creative force that moves through all beings and not just think the painters and the composers are the creative alone, but that all humans have this creative spark. He opened up that for me. So it could be the dishwasher, it could be the thing. And not to put yourself because you're extra creative in a special category.

At least I got that. And also you could bring out your own unique gifts because all those people have some kind of gifts. Like today. I'm just going to bring it up. But this makeup girl you had for me, she was so lovely. And the way she was kind, not pretentious, it was just like a very creative feeling. So it comes from all places when you try to be open to it. Yes. And she's so thrilled and happy about what she's doing. She's passionate about it. Yeah. So but tell me a little bit more about the process. So the process was we started the session maybe, and I would start talking about my dreams.

And did you write your dreams down? I wrote a lot of them down. Not all of them. I wrote a lot of them down. But I had dreams. I mean, I had dreams when I would be writing in the car and I'd go off the road in Malibu, and then I'd be driving into the water and it was a dead end road. And sometime I was with my first wife, ex-wife. And sometimes I was alone and I was going to drown. And I had a lot of those kind of dreams for a while, and I couldn't stay on a road. And I had dreams where I was flying when I was cruising through the universe. And then sometime I combine it with when I did go to New Zealand and landed on the Swiss Alps and almost fell through the ice, the pilot of the helicopter said, You can't go there without me.

You could fall down something. I could never get you out. The Alps and in New Zealand. Is this reality or dream? It was both, but that was reality. But that fueled some of the dreams and was like in. Pretty potent and scary. Yeah. And when I was in Hungary at the the big museums and on the water in Venice, Italy, and walking across the canals, how much of it was a dream, I walked the streets of Venice. In my mind, I've got to get that poem out again. And I would I'd live it. And I met the everyday people on the Lido Senior is retired and I met the people everyday that will go with flowers to their husband's grave and Little Island, Italy and Hungary.

There were people with babies at the airport or at the train station and they tried to get money. But then I found out later some of them would take the babies from their friends in the day and use them and they would split them. Not that that's if that's a survival, but I mean, there's just all kinds of things that I opened up to that living in America. I did a song called Stevie Nobody Wants, and I said, My name is Steven, but I'm not Steven Spielberg, you know, But I live in America apartment, see, like the just the everyday American experience.

But when I matched it with traveling and going in, really in the dreams, it all became part of the journey. And sometimes they would mix up. And that makes. Sense. But by being just aware that I might be living what you what my mother wanted for me, the mother's signature. It might have been my grandmother might have been before her and might be back to the beginning of when my in my part started. Among the genetic all those things that are alive in this consciousness somewhere. And maybe that's what original sin is. I'm the one I think I thought of that, but maybe he thought of it.

I don't know. But I just came to me so asked questions about that. So the dreams helped me. I have more clarity now. Like sometime I make a lot of typos after I had a stroke. And so I do. And I know my grammar is not perfect, but I think to get the poetic thought and the thought can uplift humanity out, try to get it as clear as you can. And that's the important thing. I think it's important to learn that the technical parts, but the main thing is to get your God energy, your grace energy, your creative to get that flowing. And I think Dr. Bale, by unmasking some of these dreams.

Whatever your endeavor. Whatever your endeavors and what's holding you back, what in your dreams is holding you back, what are you afraid of? What's the fear? What's the fear of death? And did he ask you those kinds of questions? Yeah, we talked about everything like that. But as he got older, the more he came to a quietness to realize that I must look to that kind of God energy or grace energy. He didn't call it that. So I don't want to misrepresent. But I think what he said is a lot like I think it's what you said in your podcast. And I think to get to love loving this, not for to gain love back, but the flow of love, that is what can heal.

Nations can heal wounds. And are we thousands of years away or are we ever. But I think that's the direction for the world. Someday. It's the only way to go. It's the only way. And I think that all the nations are all off a little. Well, I think I think the world is off where. I think where as long as you want to create these kind of enemies, rather than look for ways we can get along and doesn't have to be bad for a lot of people. No, but we just don't know how to work from love we're working for. Yeah, fear and our in. And jealousy and greed sometimes just wanting and there are people however they've got congested in their consciousness.

I'm using my term that are not for everyone. And you also when you're going out there, you have to don't think everyone's potentially good on this existence. I'm not saying overall and like some spiritual namby pamby world, but in the real world, there's some hard assets out there that are out to make sure you don't get that promotion or that are jealous at work because you got to think that you did something good. They don't like it. They get envious of you. It's not your fault. But and so if you're in a place where you understand your true self, when you come across those people, you know sort of what to do with them in terms of your own well-being.

Yeah. And you learn sometimes silence to not engage a person like that. If you can avoid it. And you can't fix everyone. And you can't fix everyone, but in other words, there's a harshness to a teaching. Ah, not a harshness, but a hardness of firmness is a better word. You must be firm in your moral content. This is this is right. So, for example, what would he have shared with you that would show that firmness. By blaming someone else for something that you've done yourself? I see. And he would sort of bring that up. Here's the thing that happened.

This is how it really. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also me realizing that maybe I overdid do it. But some of people just want to get rid of me as a friend. Or maybe I did try to fix some people don't want to be fixed that way and then maybe they're just not click with you, right? And you. And when you're trying to impress people, eventually somebody will call you. There's no. But when you understand your worth on your own personal level. Yeah. And you don't need the payoff of social media or the press are being famous. You, you feel good and content within yourself for what life you do have.

And if all of that. That's what Dr. Bale works toward with me. Does that make. Sense? It makes sense. So what do you do now without him? I try to work it as best he brought me along enough that I'm trying to work it as I can, and one by one I can feel like even a block in your body because you store it in your body traumas, you still store it somewhere. But I'm if you love enough and long enough, if you're learned stillness enough to be loving stillness not just still like a meditation alone, but to have. I know people say don't use an intent but a loving ness toward yourself.

You can un class and that will sometimes release pain out of your body. You may need help of a therapist like I did with him, or you may need a doctor to stitch you up, but you can. That's the path that I find closer for healing. So you can use this method to potentially cure physical pain. For myself. Potentially. But have I mastered it? Was I circle almost by the end of the year? Yes, but I'm staying with that kind of process. I'm trying not to deviate or be angry at life because I'm sick. I just don't see any point in that anymore. But some time I feel like it, but I try to resist that.

And you recovered? Yeah. And Dr. Bails is not only was good in that way, but it was a very pragmatic way to live with that, knowing that unless you do, your trauma is going to stay alive and active in your experience in your body, and you'll probably never overcome it the rest of your life and you'll die with it. I mean, that's a hard one. So you're dying with the same mother send that you were born with, maybe a little modified and you're passing it on to your kids and on and on. Until someday we get that break. Maybe that's all I'll say. Let's cut from that.

I think there's a potential for a healing of a consciousness. And I think he was on to something that I don't think they even grasp it totally what what he was ending at. That's what I got out of that. Yeah, well, and we need more people to understand this in practice. Via his methodology. Practicing the methodology and practicing living, loving kindness. Yeah, that's the base in. Practical terms, for humanity and not just for yourself. Do you still pay attention to your dreams? Yeah, I probably could pay more attention, but I'd. My dreams have been different, and I'm having a harder time dreaming and sleeping now, so I do still listen to them.

So if you do remember a dream, do you think? What does that mean? What can I look to in that dream that's going to give me a key? There's something that my unconscious wants me to know. Can you do some of that on your own? Yes, I can. And also, I can tell in a dream sometime that I'm blocking that something in me is blocking it. And if I can pinpoint that time, I can get that body part to calm down. It might even it might even do it as simple as saying don't eat cherries at night, but only eat six or seven of them. But don't eat pineapple at night because you're either going to get acid reflux.

I mean, that sounds that's a of out of a dream. I can get that now. No, that's kind of weird, but that's great. I have a hard time sleeping still. I wish it was here because I'd like to get through this sleeping thing, so I haven't been perfect on it, but I'm using it as best I can. Well, we were talking in another episode with Dr. Lauren Weiner, and we were discussing a patient's dreams, and she was sharing that in this patient's dream. She wasn't allowed to speak. She discovered that via this method or that method, she was being shut down. And in her real world, she had a terrible sore throat.

Her inability to speak her imprint, you are not to speak, was presenting itself physically. And I still I think that's pretty amazing. That and it seems so simple, but yet it's really complicated for all of us to get to a place where we feel comfortable knowing that our feelings and our physical are attached. And they are. And what you what you were saying in the beginning when we talked, the trauma is alive in there, but it also not just in your mind and thing as a physical form, but some element of physical, mental combo tied together is time as a mass in your body, not just as a thought.

And that's what the realize that that's why you have to address it. You can't just think it away because you got to go back and release that experience. So from my experience, it doesn't seem to automatic for not from what I've gathered so far. No. And a lot of us, you know, we can treat some amount of illness. And sometimes you need help from someone. You do. Yeah. Yeah. And I'd like to find. But I haven't met anyone else like that. Even the ones that study like that, they're good, but not. It's not the same. So I don't know if I'll ever have another.

So I have to work with what I know and try to. And I'm still listening for the dreams. Every night I watch them and I sometime write. I try to write a lot of them down. And then you go back and review them. Yeah, I go back and review and then the same dream will come and another door will open. I didn't try that door. That's great. Yeah. And as you work through dreams, your dreams change and they lead you, as you're suggesting, to a new dream or a different dream, a different door. Yeah. What I was surprised is, even though I'm write these poems and there's a lot of light, how much darkness I still have within myself.

I think if you can face that, it's helps you a lot. So how do you see that? Or how do you. Know when I feel a real anger, fear or a hatred? Why? Or if I'm envious of that, you got a break that I didn't and I won't tell anyone. I pretend like I'm not. I could feel that. And then the dreams I feel more. But like you got the break that I wanted, you know, like you didn't deserve it. I'm smarter than you. We. I don't know if you ever had feelings like that, but I do. Sometime I try to do them less, and then I realize they're wrong now, at least. So that's a good sign, isn't it?

And I realize those people. I don't go back to them anymore. I just let it go. Yeah, so you. But you can stop yourself and think, Wait a minute, This isn't the me, the loving me. Yeah. And also, I used to write him a note or something. I'm sorry if I. But. But now I just let it go. I mean, that's my way. I'm not saying everyone. And then if they come back, they do. And most of the time they don't. And that's okay. It's okay. You got to move on. Yeah. You can't please every person in this life, in this dimension. There's still a lot of sadness.

There is through this work with Bernard. You came to understand all of this about yourself. I came to understand much more of it. Yes. And I never had an experience like him either. Me neither. I had great doctors, great people. But there was something different about him, that quietness he got. And you know that at the end. Well, it was hard for him to speak. And so what he had to say had to be pretty pointed. He needed to use his words wisely. So also, through your work, I think with Dr. Bail, you came to a place of painting these fabulous paintings.

Yeah. With him I opened up more. He loved my painting and even that one that you guys couldn't hang the black one with the thing. He liked that, but he liked that I'm using that fire of energy against the darkness that I'm. I'm breaking through. He really enjoyed. He could see interpret it more than just as the painting. And what about you? What does the painting do for you? Each one is different, but I find certain things opening up in it. Everything doesn't have to be a face, doesn't have to be defined. But sometimes you want one. Sometimes it doesn't have to be a good face.

It just has to be convey an emotion. Well, I think your painting is fabulous, I feel like. And you'll tell me that you are really letting your unconscious speak. I really feel that I am. And I think when I really let go in my spoken like I wrote a poem about the ocean, but instead of romanticizing it, like a lot of people, I realize the ocean knows nothing about human kindness. It is ruthlessly itself. When it comes, a wave comes, it's not going to stop. that man's there. It doesn't have that. It's on a larger or a different scale than humans.

And the recognition of that, I think, is very positive because you know where you shouldn't tread maybe in this life, if you really tune in to your dreams, you will know I shouldn't go that rocky precipice because I could fall into the water and be gone forever. It gives you some survival on this planet. Navigation skills. And you can apply those sorts of feelings to relationships with other people. And relationships to maybe this relationship. One of my relationships I should have never gone in, but I did. But if I was with Dr. Baily, I might have known.

I love her like that, but it's not worth my sexual my other feelings to go where I'm where I'm in a tornado. I'm in a hurricane of consciousness that I don't know how to get out of it. It'd be like knowing the arc, the waters coming, you're going to either drown or you're on the ark. And then if you don't like it on the ark, what are you going to do till you get to land? And then you're going to mess up again? So in that relationship that you were in, where you ultimately realized it wasn't healthy for you. It was too late for her. But for me, I was okay.

But I got through it. But it was so many wounds I couldn't even tell you. Maybe even made me impotent. I made more problems. I had all kind of problems. And I, partly by not addressing it or not seeing it for what it was or thinking, everybody's good. That's something you got to watch, that is. Yeah. So describe that a little bit. Thinking everybody's good. And I think. That everybody's really as not sorted out to be a really when I say good I mean I'm not that they're awful evil people, but they're mostly still in a survival for themselves and it's hard for them to have enough to think of others and humanity.

And I don't even mean it sometimes it's just they do not know. They don't. They don't know. But it is difficult for people to process doing good for others sometimes. Yeah, because that means a cost to them. And the one thing that Dr. Bail taught me is that it's good to give to others and not just to take for yourself. You have to be willing to let go of something maybe that you wanted for a higher good. Well, I think that's part of our true human experience, is to be able to give. If you've gotten rid of the trash, then it's sort of a natural occurrence.

You just automatically give to the rest of humanity because you're coming from it. And I want to try and give more to people in my way with less selfishness and knowing I'll never do it. All that is my legacy. And I think he helped me a lot in that, or to try and be a good person. There's a lot of people say, I'm an egomaniac. I might have elements of that, but I try to face the darkness. And one thing that I learned, I wrote a song with P.F. Sloan called Embrace the Darkness. P.F. Sloan wrote Eve of Destruction, Secret Asian Man, lot of song.

He's deceased now, a wonderful writer. But in that we embraced the darkness because from the darkness, we can learn the light and from the dreams. A lot of the darkness will emerge if you open up and don't block them. So the darkness represents really the parts of ourselves that we're afraid. Probably, yeah, that we're afraid to explore and that we're afraid to face. And that unaddressed traumas could be the storms and oceans of our consciousness that look like thunder and lightning and clouds and irresistible that you can never get out of the vortex.

The black holes of existence that seems no tunnel out like some some of the world situation. Now. One thing that a few people have said, and I felt this myself, is that when you're going through this process and you're discovering what your trauma is or parts of your imprint, you almost step back like, Wow, that's a big discovery. I realize I'm not to be loved. I know that. And now that I know that I can operate from knowing that all of the trash that was held in that container has been released or some of it has, How do you fill in the spaces?

I mean, how do you deal with this different existence now that you get a glimpse of the fact that that's not true? You put it by living more kind of acts toward more people. That's my answer. Out of the dreams emerges. The reality of trying to be a better at realizing that you will never be probably the God maybe where we are from here, but we could be better beings. I know this song we wrote P.F. Sloan and I got to bring him up. It was one of the lines was it was called Ginger Street, determined to make each day better than the one before. Just around the corner on the other side of the world.

Someday our hearts will meet on Ginger Street, which was the metaphor for that place in dreams and in life, where we overcome these hurdles may be the ultimate overcoming. So when I wrote World of Peace with Brian Wilson, we really hope to change consciousness toward peace. But at then I hadn't met Dr. Bail, and if I had had written World of Peace after, now I understand World Peace and after work with Dr. Bail, I think I might have known more pragmatic ways to do it rather than just write about it at rallies and things in the sixties, which was good, but it wasn't the effect of just complaining about it, but it wasn't.

How do you change yourself to create the peace? It wasn't coming from a place of actually knowing that inside yourself. We all wish for that. Knowing how to live it. When you start living it, you can effectively start changing people and yourself. That's my view. Well, thank you for all of this fabulous insight. Really. Was it a good one or Pretty good? Yeah, I love talking about this. I love this and I love these kind of shows. Everyone's so sweet and wonderful to me. It's a great experience producing this. And and again, I just want to say that and I think Dr. Bill would say this too, that accessing your unconscious through your dreams is the way we heal.

As an adjunct to that, we find other ways to release trauma and trash or express ourselves. And you have done that so unbelievably through your painting. I mean, I look at your paintings and I just see so much expression coming out, so much of your unconscious. That's what I see, is that. I think it's true. I I've done things I never could do before. I've attained levels of happiness humanly. I've never experienced even in love before. Through the art is an act of love. Sometimes it is. It's an act of loving like I love the art, like a woman or romantic it sensual.

It's everything. The one thing I learned and a lot of people I haven't seen, but I encourage them to take their own creative Don't just have them want to like your work. This helps me through the dreams. I realize this and the realities when I encourage others and see good in them, they start feeling good. Yes, I think we all need to do that for each other. Yeah, and I think that's good too. And don't just save it for yourself. No, and I don't I think you get to the bottom of this with this work. You can't help but do that. It just becomes a natural.

If you get to this point. Yes. Which is no easy task. No. But curiosity and venturing forward a little bit, one step at a time. I think we all need to do that. So thank you. Glad you were here. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. And thank you all for listening and watching and come back again soon. I'm so grateful. Thank you very much. Bye for now. Bye.