Finding the Soul of the City: Street Photographer Suitcase Joe on Skid Row, Dignity, and Seeing Every Person

Transcript auto-generated from the episode audio; formatting has been cleaned up, but wording is verbatim.

I went down there with this idea that I wanted to document Skid Row in a way. On a scale that it had never been done before for historical purposes. Really. Like it just started to feel like I'm going to anybody's house again. Started to feel like homes. This became very regular. And then I realized it is very regular. This is their community. These are their homes and they're not different. And a lot of it's a birth lottery. A lot of people are born into different environments that have less opportunity and chances. And because of that, they've made different decisions instead of thinking. What divides is really like, what kind of like what unites us and what what do we share?

I'm Cynthia marks, and I head up the Holistic Psychoanalysis Foundation established by my late husband, Doctor Bernard Bail. Welcome to. And Now Love. My guest is the anonymous Los Angeles street photographer known as Suitcase Joe. For over a decade, Joe has walked the streets of Skid Row and the fringes of the city, capturing the faces, the dignity and the hidden heart of people. The rest of the world often look past, and a world that is quick to judge. Joe looks for the soul. Joe's keen eye and open heart have led him to find unconventional beauty. He honors the overlooked and what it means to see another person with compassion.

Today, he is sharing what he continues to see and discover with us. Suitcase Joe. Thanks for being here. Thank you. It was quite an intro. I appreciate that. Well, it's all true. And there's so much that I want to cover with you, so let's just get into it. All right? So you're doing this super unique thing, this beautiful photography. What led you to this? If you're okay telling us a little bit about your personal story? Yeah. I was working in downtown, in a studio, doing some writing. And back door of my studio actually was Los Angeles Street. And on my lunch breaks, I would go kind of wander around Skid Row, and this is for a few years.

And I would I would see the tents in the encampments. And I was very fascinated by them. And I would tell some of my friends who were photographers, I'd be like, you guys should go and like, photograph Skid Row and document this place like nobody's doing it really on the level that I was seeing. And everybody would tell me, you know. No. No, you're crazy. We're not going into Skid Row, especially with our equipment. People down there going to rob you, hurt you. So my fascination just continued to grow, and eventually I went and took a photo and realized I was seeing it in my head a certain way and that I should just do that.

I just wasn't really thinking of myself as a professional photographer. Not that I maybe even do now. And from that it grew. But originally I. I went down there with this idea that I wanted to document Skid Row in a way, on a skill that it had never been done before for historical purposes, really. Like someday people would look back and I was going to try to photograph everybody down there. I wasn't really thinking about their stories or who they were. On a more personal level, but just pretty quickly going down there and meeting people, I started to form this deeper connection with the people in Skid Row and the community, and I didn't really at the time.

I wasn't aware that it was just changing my life and my outlook on life for the rest of my life. It seems that once you kind of take that step and you, you now have to engage with the people that you're going to photograph. You want to get their permission. It almost seems like you can't help but look at the whole picture differently. You know what I mean? Because it's it's it's no longer just a two minute, two dimensional thing that you scoot past. Yeah, absolutely. I formed friendships, and part of that was just a bit of my own genuine fascination. But the more time I spent down there, I started to realize a lot of my own preconceived notions and misconceptions, or the same as other people outside of Skid Row.

And even though I thought I was very open minded, I over time was realizing some other things were hardwired into me. And and as I gradually went down there more, I started to really kind of peel back, like I'm going to Skid Row, and it just sort of feel like I'm going to anybody's house. It could be a friend's house in like Los Feliz or, you know, wherever in Los Angeles, ten started to feel like homes, you know, visiting with people. It just became very regular. And then I realized it is very regular. This is their community. These are their homes, and they're not different. But we've as society, we've sort of separated people on a monetary ladder.

And then that separation, we begin to demonize them. And it's something, you know, you don't even realize that you start learning it as a young kid. You might learn it from your parents, who could also be great people. You go to a gas station, somebody asks for a dollar. It's like, get out of here. They're not working for their money, all kinds of things. It's very multifaceted, multilayered. But as I got in there further and I made friends with a lot of people, learned their stories, it just really kind of peeled back my perception of of human beings and that we're all very much a product of our environment.

And a lot of it's a birth lottery. A lot of people are born into different environments that have less opportunity and chances, and because of that, they've made different decisions. Almost, I would say almost with the forest hand. I think that is a big part of the difference of people in Skid Row versus people outside of Skid Row. I think so too, and I think it's so true. Some of us face many, many more challenges just because of that birth lottery. And I sort of feel like it's up to those of us who kind of won the lottery to help those individuals with those challenges. Yeah, absolutely. It really is a game of chance.

Or, you know, it is chance that some of us are born a lot more fortunate and we have no play or say in that. So I think to assume that you're better off or you're better than somebody because of that is it's kind of a ridiculous notion. But we see it every day. We see it everywhere. We're seeing it now in our streets in different ways with. That's right. And everything that's going on. And we do sort of grow up stereotypically thinking that there's this hierarchy. We do. And also that's not always our fault either, because we're born into that same we're born into our own environments that are repeating.

Right. And you know what? You know. Yeah. And you know what? What does it take to to like, break the cycle of that? I mean, again, I always thought I was pretty forward thinking, but going to Skid Row and spending ten years down there really kind of shook my perception of everything in my life around me. Yeah. The statement you made just a moment ago about your desire to sort of document where Skid Row is now and have people look at that in the future. When you said that, I thought, wouldn't it be great if there was a world where Skid Row no longer existed? And you're looking back in a museum and you see these photographs and you think, wow, that's what it used to be like.

And now we've done something wonderful to help people who are in dire straits like that in Los Angeles. We've got to come to terms with whatever that may be. Yeah, I did think about it a little bit like like the dustbowl era photos and that, you know, and thinking that Skid Row would, would be gone someday. It's Skid Row is been around for over 100 years. That's crazy. Yeah. And part of me was thinking that maybe the the Olympics would wipe it out in some way. Because at least visually, you know, that's what we tend to do. And here and other countries, when the Olympics come, they just want to be perceived.

Everybody does. You know, as like the greatest place in the world at that time to be. So they often hide things, you know, when the cameras are here. But I was just down there and it seems to be very much very full again. The population seems to be rising in Skid Row again, where I had noticed a dip in at like a couple of years ago. Do you think that has something to do with the major cleanup at Echo Park? No, I feel like. There's just more people. Yeah, that was a that's been a few years now, and I think just a lot of what's going on with the economy in the world, you know? So I'm seeing a lot of RVs down there, and I'm actually seeing kids down there on the streets for the first time, which I didn't see before.

So tell us a story or two about some of the people you've connected with. And in addition to that, have you seen some instances where people wanted to move away from those circumstances and ended up either going back home safely or getting a job and an apartment, or finding housing? Well, I have seen success stories, and often I've noticed that tends to come more from people who are kind of on the slippery slope of the beginning of becoming homeless. Maybe they're really struggling to keep an apartment. They might be living in their car and helping them get housing, even temporarily, or some wraparound services to support them.

I've seen success rates in that. It's sort of easier at the beginning of that unsheltered experience. And the longer somebody is down in Skid Row or anywhere living on the streets, I think it's not just necessarily there. Want to get off of the streets that are that can keep them there. But I think the longer that you're away from, you know, the standards of of society, of being a contributing member, it's really hard for you to reintegrate back into the world. Nobody wants to hire somebody who's been living on the streets for ten years. Not enough to make a remarkable difference. Yeah, in a lot of these, there are a lot of great resources.

There are, but there are also a lot of stipulations that come with those resources that are really hard for people who have been living very free or anybody really. m. checking in. And, you know, these are grown people and they're being treated like children in a way. They're being treated almost like free to roam prisoners. And a lot of them are just like, I'm not going to do that when I can, you know, live on the streets. I know my personality. I wouldn't be able to do that myself either. You asked me if there were sort of success stories or non success stories, and I guess I've seen both, but I this is somebody I was really close to.

His name's Cricket and he's passed away now. And he became like one of my really close friends. And you know what I would say, like my best friend in Skid Row and I would go see cricket all the time. And throughout the time that I knew him, when I met cricket, he did not want to leave Skid Row. He's been unhoused since he was, well, pretty much since he was 18, or maybe a little younger since he left home. How old was he when you met him? He was. I believe he was 50 when I met him. My gosh. Yeah. And he'd been living in Skid Row specifically for 18 or 19 years. And he would tell me, you know, I love it down here.

It's like there's the freedom down here. And and I don't know how to, you know, basically he didn't really know how to function inside of our world as much as we probably couldn't survive inside of his. But then over the time that I knew him, he had a stroke. And that left him a lot more vulnerable on the streets. And he was getting older. He did want to get housing, which is also a very long process. It's not like I want to get housing and tomorrow. Yep, housing. His took two years. I've seen I've met people who've been down there for seven. There's different tiers of reasons. People have to wait.

And it could be too that some you're being offered housing, but your downtown Los Angeles and the housing is, I don't know in Cucamonga. Yeah, it could be anywhere. And so he did get housing. And then some of those buildings are pretty horrific. And the building he was staying in was it was worse than Skid Row. You know, it was a weird thing. I would go down there to see him inside of there. And they had security like Monday through Friday to like seven at night. And then it was just a free for all, sort of like a trap house. But a cricket people started coming into his room, and then they basically took his room over and kicked him out.

So he went back to the streets. He was waiting for housing again and and he passed away. But while he was there waiting, you know, he would tell me like there's two sides to to living here. One is that it's nice to have a home again. And then on the other side he was like, I don't really know how to adjust to this. And like, I've been out here so long, you know, and and looking forward, he was going to get into different kinds of housing. And from there he needed to go to work and pay bills. And he was just like, I just don't know how to, like, live like this. And he was very used to the commotion and camaraderie of being on the streets and people around each other all the time.

And he was like, it's just so quiet here sometimes, you know? And so I think there's just like anything, it's just not black and white. Getting housing doesn't mean that you're good to go. There's a whole other like list of things that come along with that. It can go a million ways. It's different personality traits, different factors. And often I hear people say, like, you know, pull yourself up by the bootstraps. But circling back to what I was saying earlier, it's not it's not necessarily an easy thing to do. Not at all. And and that is, I think, an issue that almost all of us have. Well, I shouldn't speak for all of us, but I do.

I always my first go to is that whatever I think of in my head, the way I look at things is the same way everybody else is. Well, it's so, so far from the truth. And I tell myself that every day and, well, I think that that's sort of a problem we have as a world and that we think we, we know the same thing everybody else knows. Yeah, in, in our circumstances give us our own unique perspective. And but we can't assume that that is the same or works the same for everybody. And I think that is often where problems arise, is that when we do it a lot from our country to other countries trying to dictate how they live their lives.

That is so true. Yeah. But you know what's happening there and and the way their society set up isn't necessarily the same as ours. We want to have a heavy hand over there, you know, obviously causes a lot of conflict. Yes. And that speaks to the issue we have here with the homeless. Right. So I wanted to go back to the housing. The and you may not even know much about this, I'm not sure. But the idea that the housing that was offered to cricket was in a way worse than Skid Row. Does the quality of the housing has something to do with a particular agency or let's say, do different agencies offer better or worse housing?

I, I wouldn't assume yes, but I can't speak to it specifically. I have seen a lot of the different housing people have had, and I think that housing could have the housing itself could have worked. It was just the non-security of the building, you know, it just created sort of a free for all. After hours. There were people I met a guy who lived there and he said, he was telling me, this place is horrific. He'd been there for years, and he was saying it wasn't because of the building itself. It was because of some of the people that were more transient coming and going and like, what would happen inside of there.

Yeah. And I guess if you've been someplace like Skid Row where you've created a community, obviously some of those people come and go, everybody's out in the open, everyone has their eyes on each other and who's coming and going, right? Have you found or did you find in the beginning that there were particular individuals that you needed to speak with before you could have access to, let's say, the community at large? We've been in some circumstances where there been sort of block captain people in a way. Yeah. Shot callers. Yes, absolutely. I did spend a lot of time in Skid Row without my camera, especially in the beginning, not for any specific reason that I just really loved going down there.

And I was meeting people. But early on, I bumped into a guy whose name is crucial. Crucial wasn't crucial. We interviewed Khrushchev. You know. Crucial. Yeah. She shows great. He's awesome. He is awesome. We're still friends to this day. We talk on the phone. I see him every now and then. But I went over to him and I said he was washing two dogs. He was living on the street then and I said, hey, can I take your photo? And he was basically like, no. And, you. Know, move along. Get out of here. I'm kind of stubborn. I'm a little persistent. I didn't move along that far. I kind of stayed in. His vicinity is lurking around.

I wasn't trying to press my presence. I just, you know, I was curious. And then he called me back. I was like, come back over here. He's like asking me. He was like, what are you doing? And and I just told him, you know, I was interested in photographing the community and, and also telling people stories. I told him I was anonymous and wasn't really trying to make it about myself, and kind of took an interest in me. Then let me take his photo and told me a little bit more of a story he wouldn't accept money from either. I give people money to take their photos. But he is quite the artist, so I would imagine he might have a little eye for what you're doing.

Yeah, which I don't. I didn't know at the time he was an artist, and I started coming back down to hang out with Crushow and then I learned that he was an artist, but I would also hang out with him basically on the corner, and people come by and be like, “what's up Crushow”. And then they'd see me with him and he was introducing me to people credibility. Very much so. And his is that grew people down there. So to to really their like Crushow vouching for him he must be okay. So I didn't even realize what was happening at the time. And then I just started meeting more people to and going further on blocks.

But that opened up a lot for me. You know, meeting Crushow And he had a he was sort of a presence down there that people came to him a lot because he is a very, very intelligent guy and he has a very strong presence. He would keep people from feuding on the block and people come to him for advice. He's got he knows a lot of people too. He's still to this day, he calls me up. He's like, you got to help this kid. He's a young photographer, or he's always connecting people and like, cool. That is his personality. Eventually Crushow and I did an art show down there. Why did photos? And he did his art.

We hung it on the fence. Sammy's camera even funded it for us so I could give everybody their photos from, from, you know, living down there because we were talking about how they don't they don't really have photos of themselves and keep them. But yeah, he's doing really well. His art has continued to grow. Yes. My first I got I was in a museum show and it was my first museum show. They were like, we need an artist. And I was like, wow, Crushow? Yeah, put him in the show too. Where was that? A Torrance Museum of Art? Yeah, it was a couple of years ago, but. That's a big deal. Congratulations.

Thanks. Yeah, so I've done I've done some shows with him, and, yeah, we keep a contact. So he has two grown children I believe now. Yeah. His son is very grown, very. Tall and a partner. And he is no longer living on Skid Row. But he did tell us that like you, it's a neighborhood for him. He goes back and. Oh, yeah, hangs and protects and helps people. He's really great about that. He stays very active part of a lot of a lot of community programs that he he just stays, stays active in. So to go back a bit, I know that you have publicly shared that you were struggling in your life before you began this adventure and trying to figure out how to or not to get yourself out of a deep depression, and that you came to this work and that was the ticket.

What about this work changed your scenario? It's actually twofold. I have another life that is a different while. I did that was like a different kind of creative life, and I wasn't being fulfilled in that anymore. So I created Suitcase Joe sort of as an outlet. But it's actually after I photographed Skid Row for many, many years, I just went into a pretty deep depression. And from that I kind of forgot about Skid Row for a minute. One of those depressions where you can't really get up off the couch. And I was considering taking my own life, and I just made up my mind that I had this other idea.

I wanted to go outside of Skid Row and just go further and and start going all over LA, meeting people from different communities and tell the stories on a bigger level. It's a great city for that. Yeah, huge city of communities, huge. And it had been on my mind for years, but I was so hyper focused and dedicated to Skid Row specifically that I just never left there. So I, you know, I told myself, I'm going to go out and make this book. I'm going to go take all these photos. And if I still feel the same way afterwards. I'm going to go ahead and go through with it. And the I just put my whole life on hold.

I mean, everything responsibility, debt, bills. Because I told myself I was like, these things aren't going to matter. Also, I hit such a low that I just didn't care, you know, kind of sabotaged myself. But truly, I didn't like it letting go that much. I really found even a deeper freedom in like self liberation. For six months I walked around every day LA, I'd go to different areas, I'd photograph, I'd meet people, and I just felt deeper in love with life, people, the world around me. And I'm so thankful for that period of my life. And truly, I didn't sabotage anything. Everything that I put on hold was wasn't hard to fix.

And but what I found in myself, which was kind of always there in my personality of of being a hyper focused on things and like going after them. It just really instated that in a deeper way. You know, life is fleeting and short, and I think that you have to find your purpose in it. And whatever your passion is, is really what you should live for and lean into. It's easy for us to get distracted by other things, and I was allowing myself to do that, you know? And so just giving myself over to my creative and my art and what I love, which is connecting with people in the way that I do to tell their story, has a beautiful experience.

The name of the book was Great Flowers. It's kind of a melancholy name, and that's how I was feeling. And I was meeting these people. I was like, they, these are the gray flowers of LA. I was feeling like a gray flower myself. It's a beautiful book. Thank you, thank you. Yeah. You know, I went outside of Skid Row and I kind of saw the bigger picture. You know, Skid Row was great. I spent a lot of years there, and it was like my education. After cricket passed during that era, I almost felt like I physically couldn't go to Skid Row anymore. And that was, I think, really adding to my, my depression because I felt a responsibility to it that I owed it, you know, because I never I never wanted to ever end going to Skid Row and in the intense way that I went because I was going like every day.

So tell me more about why it was hard for you to go to Skid Row. A lot of the people that I photographed and became close with, I was also filming down there, passed away. I mean, with fentanyl and age and just everything. It's so tenuous. You know, and down there, a lot of people do pass away. And the more people you know, I knew probably a couple hundred people in Skid Row, the numbers just start to they just started hitting really heavy. And I think in a period I lost around maybe 20 to 30 people, you know, some I didn't know as closely as cricket, some I did, I think they say like three unhoused people would pass away a day.

And I think that's in the city. Those are that's a lot of numbers people. Incredible. And fentanyl was hitting really hard. I mean that was obliterating to down there. There's a lot of drug use down there. So that's changed because the fentanyl situation has changed. Some I don't know I don't I think that it's still a worry. I don't know if there's a. Or maybe it's because of the Narcan. Yeah I'm not really sure how how much it's still hitting. And you know there's going to always be a new drug. Yes. There was one after that called tranq that was hitting the streets. It was more addictive than these drugs.

And I don't know that it that it exploded to be that big. But yeah, I think that I have felt a deep responsibility to it. And it was also kind of my time to, to move on naturally. I was kind of grappling with with that because I felt like I was in abandoning people, but part of me was like, I had to I kind of had to let it go for myself. Well, I guess because you were a creative person and a curious person, if you go into Skid Row, but you're internally holding back to protect yourself from something, you're not going to be doing justice to the work the way you'd like to. It's true. I was becoming very jaded, and I remember in the beginning somebody telling me that I would eventually become jaded, and I was like, absolutely not.

You can't happen. But it does happen. You know, you just see so many different things down there and humans repeatedly being treated so honestly, like inhumanely by other humans. And it's like a cycle, you know, and I knew like a generation of people in Skid Row, and I did everything I could to help them, and a lot of people around me did. And then there's just it's like a refill. Yes. I see, and that goes well beyond Skid Row of why people are there, so many reasons people end up unhoused and that refill. I just felt like it was a war that I couldn't win. And and not that you should approach it that way.

It's like, I think we should all do it. We can. We should. But completely understandable. That is such a good way of putting it here. You feel like you've accomplished something, and the same thing falls into place again, where there's another human who's struggling. And looking at it that way, I think is overwhelming. And again, I do think that's the wrong way to look at it. I think it's like in all things, we should all play our our part and you just nobody can shoulder all of that. You know, I really wanted to I started a foundation which is now collapsed. But like with that, I really wanted to grow up bigger and set up my own resource centers.

And. And what was it that you were? We basically were taking people. And first we started out just like doing like, you know, you go down there and get people food, blankets, all that kind of stuff. And then I pulled back and I was like, there's a lot of people doing that. What else can we do? And we started I was talking about earlier, the slippery slope, finding people who were more on the verge, and we teamed up with Safe Park LA, and we would find people like these, these parking structures, and they could park their cars at night, be safe in there with the security guard. They're kind of living in their cars during that time.

We're bringing in all different kinds of people to help them. You know, job resources, therapy, we'd give them money. We even got people cars, computers, and we would see people get into housing. We would get them housing, help them getting on their feet into getting really back into life. And that was actually effective, you know. So but that's you kind of have to almost scale down in a way that you find the smaller percentage of people who really are going to fight harder to get out of there and working with them. Not to say that all those other programs and things don't help, because they do, and that's all needed as well.

I just really wanted to pull people off the street and get them back into society, and we want to just continue to create wraparound services and work with other nonprofits and organizations and whoever to just, you know, wrap that around somebody who needs it because that that process, again, that doesn't take this not overnight. It could take years. And I think that's the other thing. When it's like, oh, someone has housing, they're good to go. Let's get the next one. I'm like, there's a whole other list of things that needs to be taken care of and address. If we really want this person to be like a success story and be able to integrate themselves back into to life or this side of life, so, you know, through that.

Yeah, we just basically set up as many wraparound services we could and teamed up with other organizations to, and it was successful, but I just couldn't handle that as well after a while. It's extremely admirable. But what a major, major task. Yeah. I mean, I just we've spoken to so many individuals or agencies who are doing some of what you're describing, and each conversation is overwhelming. It's like, wow, how do you get anything done? How do you put your head on your pillow at night and think there were 27 things where I saw I could help someone and I didn't have the tools or I didn't have the time.

And it's easy for us to, like, block that whole portion away because it takes a lot of investment. And but that's part of the human experience, I think, is human investment in one another. This is a question that I think so many of us are asking. And you are on the front lines, let's say, more than most of us. Is there anything that you see that we can do as individuals or as communities to to truly make a difference? I feel like we, many of us, are doing fabulous things to touch upon one or 2 or 3 elements. Many of us are closing our eyes to it. Many of us are aggravated by it. But the situation where people are really suffering from some difficult challenges is so far not going away.

Is there something you see that we're not addressing? I yeah, I think it has been addressed before and in different ways, but I believe the statistic is a third of unhoused people have mental health issues. I feel that part of our taxes should go to facilities to facilitate people with mental health issues, because there's a lot of people out there who truly cannot function, and people don't want them on the streets. But, you know, as we all know, Reagan closed down a lot of these places. And since then, what we see is a cycle of people who often go, they can't really function in schools. And then they, you know, they go to the street and then they get picked up and they go to jail or prison back on the street.

They really just can't function. And I personally think that it's okay if some of our money goes to paying for them to exist and live and be taken care of. I think it's just a humane thing to do as a society. You know, you were saying something about it earlier, but it's like we we help out people. We're the birth lottery thing or it's like, or wherever you are, if you have if you're kind of on the upper tier in some sort of way or another, then pick up the person below you, you know, and you don't have to take that on and drain yourself completely. But like, if that's something you can vote for, then vote for it.

I think that being a little bit more educated about that too, because again, that separation that we're hardwired into thinking, you just look at somebody out there and I'm not saying you, but I'm just speaking people in general. And not that we all do this, but it's like you just look at somebody and you just make a lot of assumptions about. And they're lazy. They're a drug addict. They very well could be a drug addict. But there's a lot of reasons for that. Too often it is people self-medicating from mental health issue PTSD that was brought on by circumstances of life situations. And these are the things that I think really it's all about learning, you know, teaching your kids, teaching your community, going out, learning for yourself, understanding people's circumstances, why they might be in a situation that they are, and then really helping to embed them.

You know, in often what we do is we just criminalize people. That's what we do in America. We criminalize people. And there's also tons of reasons for that. Prisons for profit. Again, everything is very multifaceted. And so, you know, we have to make a lot of changes. And it's it's going to have to be radical changes. And it does feel overwhelming when you look at it that way. But you just got to start hitting it where you can and doing your little part. And I think that is in, in short, kind of part of the larger answer. Yes. Well thank you. And again, we have so many agencies here in Los Angeles who are really striving to make a difference.

And I'm so appreciative of everything that they're doing. And, you know, there's not enough credit given to them because they can't cure the problem all alone. Absolutely. But they are taking on a chunk of it. And, you know, some of the people that we've interviewed are clearly sort of exhausted, but so in love with the idea of making a difference that they're just, you know, in there, which is, you know, an issue there. Again, in that we need to support the people who are giving 112% to, you know, communities and trying to make a little dense, you know, and like you say, you help someone in that spot is refilled.

How do you keep at it? So let's talk about your photography because, you know, at face value, it's extremely moving. I mean, there's you've given so much depth to what I said might otherwise be a two dimensional experience. If you're just driving along, you don't want to look at it. But your photography truly tells a story. And just thinking about it, you know, I get goosebumps because I really feel like you're capturing an experience. And when you were first speaking about this, you were saying that you were just going to go and document what's happening. And if you think about what you see on Skid Row, the layers, the, the, the texture of the homes that people carry with them, the pets, the sidewalk, all of it is texture and dimension and helps to create the story around the person.

Is the person the main part of your story? I mean, let's say. As. A just a piece of art. Yeah, no they are. Well, it's hard to say what's the main, you know, but I think that the what's around them really is the story, you know, and that's what you're wanting to show and tell through that image. But I always look at it as trying to capture a story in one image that tells a bit of it. But I also like to show really the beauty of people. And I think for me, that's what appeals to me is not showing, making people look, I don't know, downtrodden and all that. Obviously those elements are there and it's going to be seen, but there's still beautiful people and these people are still proud and happy, still clean.

It's like we don't always have to show these horrific images of homelessness, because there's a million stories out there, and I feel like society has tended to lean that way a lot. And I think it just becomes a kind of a exploited sort of approach to it. I also say that I don't always agree with how people photograph homeless people and how they go about it, but that's just my personal opinion, and they can do what they want. I don't have to like it, but but I also say, don't stop what you're doing because. Because of me, because I'm not going to stop what I'm doing because of you. Right? As it should be.

Yeah. But I do see what you're saying in that the faces in your photographers create, at least for me, so much curiosity and and you show however you do it. A human in there. Yeah. It's in the eyes. I don't know. It's in the smile. It's in the facial expressions. It is this. The story is there. You can see it. I always like to get to know my subject before I photograph them. And, you know, I can do that sometimes with people very quickly. It's a connection. And I think that comes through in the photos, because I genuinely do care about the people and I'm interested in their story. And I think that's what people see in my photographs.

I'm not just walking up and snapping photos. I'm not doing it candidly, especially not in Skid Row. No. And that is out of respect for people. You know, there's street photographers who are very big on just going up and photographing people, and maybe that works in certain environments, but I don't think you do that to people in these environments. So, so invasive. And I really do. I'd like to get to know them. And I do feel like a strong connection with people. That's how you tell your best story. So I know you mentioned that you've had occasions where you've kind of made friends with, I said, the block captain, but you had a better name like Crusoe.

And they've then said to their comrades, he's okay. You know, he's all right to talk to me, but are there instances where you're you're sort of out on your own and you want to make a connection so that this person can trust and respect you? Yeah. And how do you go about that? So I get asked this question to and there's like not one not one direct answer. But I approach people in how I approach them. I don't know how that varies, but I always approach people to smile in a hello because I'm excited and happy to meet them. And I think starting off just like that usually goes a long way. I usually ask them a couple questions, you know, I tell them about who I am to and if it feels right, I'll ask if I can take their photo.

If it doesn't. But I also ask people what they need, how they're doing. Some of these people just no one just talks to them, just like a regular friend or just meeting somebody, you know. So I think a lot of that goes a long way in my approach. Again, it's just it's a genuine care for people. And I just I don't know how it just comes across and curiosity to I am very curious about how they're living and how they're doing, and I'm curious about what they think would help because not not enough people are actually asking people in the situation like, what? What can we do here to make it better? So I always ask people that too.

Yeah. What do you really need? What do you need? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the question I asked you, we should really be asking those people who need the help. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So your photographs are in black and white? Yes. And what about that? Medium suits what you're doing? I am very drawn to black and white photography. I think it does something. When you look at an image, it really pulls forward to me the the texture of the scene and the emotion. And I think it makes the brain fill in a bit of, of it yourself. That's interesting. And does that work both in terms of a portrait or a non-person photographer photograph?

Yes, I think that it does. You know, I'm just very drawn to black and white photography. Even before I was thinking about being a photographer, I was always something about black and white photos. They just stood out to me. They're very grabbing, you know? And when I started photographing, that's just how I saw Skid Row. And again, that could be from some of the photos that I looked at. I wasn't aware that I was influenced by photography. I was just drawn to a certain kind. But I didn't know who photographers were back then, or that somebody did a body of work. I didn't even understand how that worked.

You know, it was black and white that I gravitated towards. And when I started shooting Skid Row, it just felt right. It felt like Skid row to me. It still does. It does feel right. You know, in LA, I love shooting LA, and LA has a lot of texture and a lot of ways. And to me it really just comes, comes out in black and white. So when you're working on something Skid Row or otherwise, is there a lot of time that you have to spend checking out the natural light, or are you bringing your own lighting? It's all I'm all natural and I skid row was my training ground because I went down there not knowing anything.

Talk about starting with a really full yeah plate. I'm really fast now. I can like I'm always seeing photographs when I'm not photographing, but I can go into a situation and I like assess it very quickly. Lighting, wall texture, depth, person, you know, or scene. I kind of like look at things and I just it's just kind of almost immediate for me when I'm driving around, I'm always I always say to, I'm like, that's a good photograph. That's a good you know, I don't I don't not able to pull over and take them. But you're right, our city is full of that fold. So for the for every photo that I've taken, there's 100 that I didn't get to take that I just wish that I could have.

There's still time. Yes. But yeah, black and white to me, is the quintessential look of how I feel. Los Angeles looks and. Feels, and I like your thought about how that allows the viewer to kind of fill in the spaces. Absolutely. It also, I think, in a way creates a greater sense of dimension black all the way to white does. And I suppose there is many gradations, but they're in a way less pronounced in color. There's more of a blend, I guess. At least that's from my view. And what is it actually that you hope or that you think the viewers are taking away from your work. For Skid Row? I really always wanted to.

People that mattered a lot to me, and I wanted to pull back a curtain and have people look at these people that maybe they saw in a certain way and then learn a connection. I'm telling their story. Yeah, I'm just like a platform. And I wanted to to I always want it to be raw and honest, you know, and beautiful outside of Skid Row. As far as what how I want people to interpret my stuff. I don't want to have any say in it. I want to take these photos for what I see is beautiful and and what I like, and I want them to have their own experience with it. So I guess it's a little bit to parts there.

And some of our audience may want to know a little bit about your equipment. What what do you use when you're out there in the world? I'm a little guarded about some of that, but I shoot. I've shot over multiple cameras over many years. I do shoot a lot of digital now, which people don't know. And I used to be I used to not tell people that because it's such a stigma about digital. But I would people always like, oh, I thought your photos were film. I shoot digital also because I can't afford film anymore. It's it's very expensive. And at the rate that I like to shoot because I can get lost for days shooting.

And then that huge investment in time to write. Yeah. And developing. And I do think there is a beauty to film for sure. I know I won't argue against it, but. And being involved in the process. Yes. In a way that you can't be digitally. Yeah. And it's very time consuming. It's a toolbox for whatever your art, your craft is like. You, you know how you reach for your your paintbrush or whatever paintbrush you reach for. I don't care what a photographer uses. I care about the image I'm seeing. But I kind of find it absurd that people like to get like, almost like in a debate of of dismissing or accepting your art because of how you approached it and rather than just what it is, you know, I'm also fascinated by it, and I'm happy to jump into any conversation about it.

I know that wasn't completely your question, but it is something that comes up a lot. No, that is interesting, and I think that applies to the art world, you know, sort of at large, where one person's choice can be dismissed because the person judging it just doesn't approve of it. Exactly. I'm a I'm like a staunch believer in, in freedom and independence for myself, in how I go about my life. To continually keep it is I keep a low overhead so I can roam a lot and do a lot of my art, and I don't make a ton of money from it. Honestly, I don't make money from it. When you really add up what I put into.

It, I like that I keep a low overhead so I can roam a lot. Very, very low overhead. My freedom is very important to me and being able to make things has always been, you know, it's just kind of how I have to exist and there isn't a ton of money in art and that's okay. I'm not in it for that, you know. Well, and it's it's clear to us that you sticking to what you're passionate about is of great benefit to the rest of us. Absolutely. And however so I think for me, digital photography actually does have a lot to play with that because I can go out and shoot a lot and I don't, you know, just what it would cost.

And that's even tripled in the recent years. So but I would imagine there would be some newbies or people who are, you know, on the edge of thinking about how can I go out and photograph something and, you know, to see your work and think, oh my God, that's so gorgeous. How does he do that? I tend to when I'm in a when I'm interested in a John of something, I tend to not look at the people that are making what I want to make, because I always want to kind of figure out my own way. But that is a lovely approach. Yeah, it's like there are no rules to to making art. There really aren't. There are no rules into delivering anything.

And the joy of making art is discovery and mistakes or not having enough means to do something one way and figuring out another that is being creative. That is. Yeah. And look at all the rules we created and we without thought. Well, just to bring it back to Bernard for a minute, your experience of kind of really finding yourself in deep depression and then from that, realizing that the best way to live your life was to follow this thing that you became passionate about. And that is sort of what happened to Bernard, too, in his work, which is why we're here, mostly is to sort of move his theory and methodology forward, which is really based in love.

And he just discovered that his passion was helping his patients. And once he found the path that was required, not required, the path that seemed to surprisingly fit most of his patients issues. And and he could go into his patients to help them discover who they were authentically. That became his passion. You know, I get it now. I see my patients are truly, truly sharing this common thread. They all come from a place of having some amount of trauma that they are living their lives from. And this comes from way back from in utero generational. And if we can help each other sort of understand that we're not that trauma and that none of us are to be deemed bad because of the trauma we carry and support, you know, we can we can help each other live better lives.

And he helped himself out of a deep depression and was, you know, therefore able to help his patients. That does go to what I was just saying, like, this is all made up. And I think sometimes trying to live inside of these confines of things that we feel pressure to live up to, they really don't exist. And when you get to that point where you can really just let it go and go like, these things don't matter. It does open up room for you to allow other things into. Again, for me, that was going like, I don't have to be this person and live with this standard and be perceived a certain way. I actually don't care about any of that if I'm willing to end it all over feelings from that, and then I'm able to let go.

It really just opened up me going like, I can be everybody and I can be nobody. I mean, I am anonymous as suitcase, but I do everything that I want. And for me that was like, you know, that is going out and just making my life all about my passion every day, be almost reckless and abandoning the things that holds you back and keep you down and make you sad or whatever that is. Let go of that or them and those things to open up that space, to find out what it is that you love and like. Give yourself over to that completely. If you make your life spending your time giving yourself over to your passion and things that you love and people that you love, it will be given back to you in abundance.

It's undeniable. Absolutely. It really is. Thank you so much for that. And I think that that is like the best message we could deliver. Really? Yeah, yeah. So follow your passion. And that's going to lead you to this sort of shared experience in some community. Yeah. Yeah I think so. So if we want to find you, if we want to read your book, Help fund you, are there things we can do? Where do we find your book? And my first two books actually are out of print now. Okay. I have a third book coming out. It's called City and Soul with Beyond the Streets that's publishing it. And for this book, I wrote captions for almost 300 photos of people that I, you know, these different stories and people.

I'm very excited about it. And is this documenting? The homeless communities are. Sort of city at large people at large, from unhoused to gangsters to punks to maybe the woman, you know, selling corn out of her shopping cart, just a very wide array of people who I think, again, it's called City and Soul, the people who give the real soul to the city, and not necessarily the people that you'll typically find is where I do think some of the greatest and best stories actually do exist. And besides that, I have a few things in the works. But like I said, I kind of got rid of all my debt and figured out ways to live by little means to have a very expansive life.

Yeah, so I'm not really looking for. I always like to say you don't need much. Hey. Well. That's awesome. And I'm so happy that you've found your nugget in this world. But if we want to see your photography, where do we see that suitcase? Joe is my Instagram. I have a website. com. There's a documentary being made about me right now, which is in large about my foray into LA the last 3 or 4 years. And when do you think that will be finished? Hopefully within less than a year for sure. Oh, that's exciting. In a beautiful way. I came to realize everybody goes through something in their life. Yeah, everybody.

Every single person. Right? We all have our wars with ourselves and our traumas and our past. And like, I think what I really want people to come away with, if I did it in something like this, is just understanding like that about everybody around you. Instead of thinking what divides us? It's really like, what kind of like what unites us and what what do we share? And I think if we understand that more about people around us, even if we don't agree with their lifestyle choices and all kinds of different things, at least it would allow us to kind of treat people with a lot more courtesy and love and respect and yes, give and take that.

Good lesson for all of us. My trauma, my issues are no greater than yours, no less than yours. I mean, whatever is knocking me down may not knock the next person down, but it doesn't invalidate in is sort of the emotions around that experience. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's what I said. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here and sharing this. And man, it would be really great to talk when your documentaries about done or done. I would love that. Really appreciate your time and what you're doing and that you come from this with such passion. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Please follow, rate and share this podcast and pass this episode along to someone who might need it.

This is and now love. Listen to your dreams and live from your heart. Thanks for paying attention.