Entertainment Law in the Age of Emotion and Innovation with Nadia Davari

Transcript auto-generated from the episode audio; formatting has been cleaned up, but wording is verbatim.

Hi, I'm Cynthia Marks. I head up the Holistic Psychoanalysis Foundation, established by my late husband, Doctor Bernard Bail. Welcome to And Now Love. Nadia Davari is with us today. She is an accomplished entertainment attorney here in Los Angeles working in music, film, scripted and unscripted television. She also has experience working with technology companies, new media and influencers. Nadia works alongside production companies, record companies and movie studios, and more. Thank you for being here today. Before we really get into this, and while it seems simple enough on the surface, what is entertainment law broadly?

And hello. Hi, Cynthia. Thank you for having me. Thank you for the invitation. Our pleasure. And we're excited to know what you know. I will try my best. So entertainment law. It sounds like it might be a very narrow area, but it's actually quite wide. It encompasses, like you just mentioned, anything from film, television. And each one of those has its own specific areas. And then you go into distribution and then you have the whole other area music, and that's its own area of law. And then you've got the scripted versus non-scripted and then you we've got all this new technologies and content that is created basically from the moment that you, create a work we call development.

Right? You're thinking about making a project for a TV film or for online platforms, even music. You know, you'd start thinking about what you are going to be making. That's the development stage. So from that point on, there are legal issues that come up and it's all about, basically having agreements with people who are working on your project. So, the concept of copyright comes into play where the person who creates the original work of art or art or creates any work and fixes it in a medium, tangible medium becomes the owner. So if you are wanting to own the results and proceeds, legalize what they've created, then you need to have an agreement with them.

Otherwise, the elements that they create, you're not the owner of it. For example, the person who wrote a screenplay is the owner of it. Now, if you want to invest in that and try and make something from that audiovisual work, from that written material, you need to secure those rights. So you need an agreement. Then when you go to put it into motion picture and captured on a camera, then all the people who are working on it, from the people who are operating the camera or the lights to the people who are doing your makeup, everybody needs to have an agreement.

So the other are the actors, the director, the producer, the you know, if there are additional writers working on it, they all need to have agreements. So that's all part of entertainment law. Then an area that you may not even think about is the distribution. When you when it's all put together now you have to get it out there. And then you have the marketing aspects of that before it gets out there. And so you hear about it. I hear I mean, I just read about, an aura that won all the Oscars this year. There was a darling. It cost $6 million to make it an $18 million in cost.

Print and advertising costs three times as much as was spent on it from the budget of the movie. To get it out there and make it a, you know, success as far as the awards seasons are concerned. And is that typical for a film that is striving to be part of. Yes. And is that becoming more and more common or more and more necessary where you really have to put a lot more money forward than you might have, say, ten years ago? So that's a good question. Has what we call Pana, which is, the abbreviation or an acronym for print and advertising is, always been expensive.

A lot of times you wind up spending more in Na than you do in the actual cost of the movie, because to get it on TV or buy ads on TV, or put it up on posters around town, all of that costs a lot of money. Now, this is just the money they spent for the awards season to get it in front of the, voters, right? Members of the academy who would see it and vote for different movies and running the campaigns, having screenings, having events, sending the screeners out. They actually sent physical screeners out, which is not very typical anymore. But the digital age.

And we get digital copies that. Still have. The syllabus. So not to bore your audience, but yeah, so all of that is encompassed in entertainment law and then financing part of it. People who are putting money into the project. Right. So that's a whole nother area of law. And then you've got music law, then you've got you know, even within, audiovisual work, you're going to have a composer and then you're going to have music that you compose that you license and the music supervisor. So, and then all of that needs to get done. And then music law is a whole nother entity onto its own, you know, the artists and then the labels and the producer and all of those.

If you're working on a music, and then if you have musical video, then you have all of those legal issues to, contend with. So I could broadly say is about securing the rights, financing it, and distributing it. So let's even talk about this podcast, for example. Right. All the people who are working on it, then you've got guests coming on, you know, to be able to use their, image, the guest image and, recordings of them, you know, and then the people who are working so diligently on this, your director and financing this project. So all of that will require legal work.

And then on the other side, also to protect it, you know, copyright and, then you've got trademark all of that, you know, it's legal work that needs to get done for just one project to make it to the market. I think it could be. And you know more about this than I do. Hard for a lot of people that are entering into these different fields music, film, writing, we all think of them as being creatively based and sort of of the ilk where you don't think you need this kind of technical, stamp on everything, and you don't even want to go there because you think we're just great creative people.

We can all make this happen. Does that come up a lot? Cynthia, you're right on. This is something that I talk about all the time, and, it shows that your have been with therapists and you've studied the human mind and heart. Because especially with creative people, you know, they come to me, they're like, oh, we just. It's just me and my friends getting together. I've known them all my life. It's just my college buddies are just shooting some stuff around. And this is going to put a damper on our ability to be. Creative and then I don't want to, like, sit there and talk about stuff like that, or they just don't want they don't like it all about it.

They just want to go make their stuff, create stuff. I can tell you the number of times where, especially with people who are just starting and younger folks, and then something hits and it hits big. And all the issues that come from not having had those agreements in place. I mean, I have clients and, they didn't heed my advice. And, you know, I do, I talk to at, some schools to people starting out at film festivals, and I always say, talk to a lawyer, just start a relationship. You know? I know you think it's going to be expensive, but, a lot of us entertainment lawyers went into this because, you know, sounds very cheesy and cliche, but we want to contribute, right?

We want to help facilitate what you're trying to do. I believe that to be true. It really is. Maybe not everyone, but most of the time. And the work with you, they'll figure out a way. We'll figure out a way of, like, making it work so that it's, manageable. And then, you know, you can have a couple of different agreements that you can use, and, you know, so that you don't get into that situation, or you have a writing partner, you're writing a script with your writing partner, how much should you contribute, how much that person contribute? Who's going to make the decisions?

How are you going to decide where are you going to put this? Or you know, what are you going to do with this? You kind of want to it's like almost like a prenup. Yes, yes. Do you think that, entertainment law is unique in a way, in the field of law in general, in that you know, you're helping people who are sort of solely creative and that that attracts a certain type of person like you. You could be practicing in another type of law that doesn't stem from this creative base, which, of course, in my opinion comes from a place of feeling. And by being able, as that creator, to understand that you're coming from a place of feeling, but you need this sort of intellect to help your feeling materialize.

Yes. Congeal. Yes. It's it's like the combination of the masculine and feminine or the ying in the yang to create this whole picture. Cynthia, again, you're right on the entertainment law practice is very different from all other areas of law, and it's very, jargon based. A lot of times, entertainment lawyers almost morph into producers. You're dealing with creative people and a lot of emotional. A lot of times those people are very emotional. Of course, as a business, the lawyers will help you manage that part so you can concentrate on your creativity, your kind of, you know, outsourcing that part of it.

Yes. It has more of a human side than, say, if you're doing real estate or, you know, you're doing other areas of law where it's corporate law, where you're, you know, making, you know, or you're suing some company. Although I would argue at some level, those things also trickle down to a human level. But this is more hands on. You're right. We only have attorneys because we are people and we're we require assistance. Absolutely, absolutely. And, which kind of, you know, I it's kind of the new wave of into what's coming sweeping in entertainment and everywhere.

And it seems like, us in the entertainment world are more on the forefront of the things that start, you know, making shifts in society. I'm sure you heard about all the strikes with the unions last year and how it basically, you know, shut down the business entertainment business. And because we're an industry town, it kind of affected the whole economy of Southern California. So it was all, you know, mostly about, I and protecting the creators from the invasion of AI. So and, you know, you can take that a step further. How was I going to affect other people's jobs, you know, all aspects of society.

How does the field of entertainment law generally feel about AI at this point in time? That is. That is such a loaded question. You can say, I'm not discussing that. So. Oh, are we talking about it from the perspective of creators, or are we talking about the perspective of the producers and the studios? So two different sides, right. I would say from the perspective of the creators. And maybe I'm wrong because unless the creators feel good about it, it can't really go very far, can it? I that's a very good point. But then you've got these large models that are using the works of creators to be trained.

Right? So that's one part of it. The work is being used without permission. And, you know, they're not getting paid for it. Well, not always, but a lot of the times. And there's been lawsuits about that. And then you've got the other side where, for example, an actor might be performing, but then their image is may be used with AI for other purposes. So they're not getting paid for that additional purpose that they only got paid for this particular project. Right. So you can't it wouldn't be fair to just use one, image and performance and then use deepfakes and other AI tools to generate a whole nother project based on what you just captured here.

Right. So are there guardrails now? So that was, the major issue with the strikes and the unions, came up with some solutions. And then, Governor Newsom passed a couple new laws. One is that, you know, if I was going to be used, you have to actually get the permission from the performer, and you have to they have to be represented. And then which ties in with what was in in SAG, it was a great victory for the guild. And then also on the publicity rights side were deceased people where we kind of discussed that using their images and creating a whole nother project based on someone who is no longer here.

Yes, I think we were talking about maybe doing that with, Doctor Rael, right? Yes. So I have concerns. It's a fabulous idea in that we could sort of bring him back to life, but we're bringing him back to life, minus the feeling in the soul of him. And I can't experience that person without that. And I. I feel like our very message, which is one of a healthy soul, a human coming from a place of love. I mean, these are feelings. And I, in my mind, is missing human feeling. And I fear the day when I, I somehow mimics. I don't even know how this would be possible.

Of course I don't even know how I is possible. I don't even know why a radio exists. First of all, that day scares me. Really? You. So, this is very interesting because if you say you were my client, you came to me. Hey, Nadia, I have this library of material written or recorded of my husband, and he was a, very knowledgeable psychoanalyst. And I, we want to be able to use that work and kind of modernize it and continue his work. And what do you think about it? Like, how do I do that? Was I you would be this is, you know, scenario of a client.

You're here. So I'm not bound by attorney client privilege. I can talk about it, right? Yes. Could you actually consider doing it in a way where you think it would get his message heard by more people and continue in his path? Or do you think there is no way that that can be done because it's generated by. I. I do think to some degree it can be done. So for example, you could go to our website now and read one of 150 essays that he produced. And you're reading that material and it was his voice, his heart, his soul that made that essay possible.

So I can question myself. So what would be the difference I versus me going to this written page? I'll explain now. So, I'll try to explain. So imagine we're in year 2025. The whole world of entertainment has changed the way we consume content. So it used to be the days where we went to the theater's box office, projects would go to the box office. They would be sitting there for a period of time. Then they'd go into the second window of home entertainment, what we call home entertainment. It would go into DVD, CD, Blu ray, what have you, and then it would find its way onto a cable TV, and maybe there were some sort of streaming device.

Not yet, but the, the beginnings of it. So you had all these different, windows. Now the whole thing is turned upside down. People don't want to go to theaters anymore. Now it's going to streamers. Sometimes people go for big events for projects. Right? But still, relative to what it used to be, it's this. It's it's virtually almost, you know, nothing is going to the streaming platforms and then you've got, these, Gen Zers, on their little, devices, on their phones, and they're scrolling and they're looking at things. Right. And the attention span has kind of it's not what it used to be is decreased.

And then people playing video games, you can go to YouTube and look up a recipe for something who's become very much more, visual. People are not spending the same amount of time reading right as much as they did before, and they want their information in smaller portions and quicker. So imagine if we could have your husband, the doctor, actually reading his own writings, and then you could create an avatar of him and then turn it into short form, content with video aspect where people could go to your website, to your social media platforms and kind of watch it.

He's reading out his own essays, his own writings, with his own tone. I happen to know your producer of your podcast very well. I know he's working on some very interesting projects. Yes, you could try and get it very close to what your husband was in fact, for what you're doing, it might be a whole nother audience that you didn't have that you can reach. Right. And the younger generation who would be consuming it? Are they already more used to this idea of an avatar than I am? Well, clearly, because I don't like the idea all I, I have in this discussion, when you're talking about viewing Bernard and listening to Bernard as an avatar, I just can't.

I just can't even imagine it in just feels like that takes away from the genuine, like I'm cheating someone, right? I think that I can be used in a responsible way. And I feel actually for this particular use, this is an example that it could be used, you know, responsibly, maybe try it, have one little clip made and watch it and see how you feel about it. And is there a way that's probably obvious to you to make sure that I stays on track, that I only want these essays read and I don't want it? That's why you have a lawyer. So you would help me be able to say, I don't want any.

Any foul. Ideas around this. I need this. Yes. Even before the guilds had the strike, you know, last year, we entertainment lawyers have started to put in provisions that protected talent. And there are agreements about use of AI and regenerating their work without their knowledge or consent. We have legalized that is there to protect you. But think about how it happened with the music business, right? The streaming music Napster, and it turned the whole business upside down. Then it went to Netflix for film and TV, you know, and then it it streaming and it turned that upside down.

And now we are like having another milestone, another change, which is going to affect all of us, right? Not just people in the entertainment business, but whether we like it or not. It's here. The question is, how do we do it responsibly and how do we protect people, individuals with their privacy and the works they've created and where that goes? As lawyers, we can do everything we can to help you. And there are a number of lawsuits that have come up because of it. And then copyright law helps, right? But of course, our laws need to also catch up with the times.

There's always a little bit lagging, but they kind of need to catch up as well. And this is changing so fast. This area of AI and probably across the board. But what happens in the field of entertainment is so present. I mean, we all want to take part music, film. It's it's with us. There are the things that are happening behind the scenes with government and whatever else that we're not as a health care. You're insurance how you get denied or you get your, you know, this is a very hot topic. Of course, with insurance, you know, how you get your covered for a service or not?

How does that make how does that I make that decision. Right. So it's not a human being making that decision is a machine. So, it's affecting all of us, all around us. But we all see it more readily, I think, in the entertainment field and in the entertainment field. How can you, as attorneys. Stay ahead of it and be because, like each day there's something new coming out in the world of AI that most of us look at and think, how did that happen? Or how is that possible? You can't even have come up with the idea of how to protect someone from that, or have an agreement with that.

If you don't know that it exists, how do you do this? I'm really, a good question. So, when streaming was coming up and gaming and the digital rights, you know, we were scrambling and, looking at old contracts to see if the rights were where, available or not. Right. So now we have a catch phrase, media now. No, hereinafter, you know, I see. It's covered. So, there catch there, just like, catch all language that we have. Right to save you. Yeah, for a while. And then when it starts to become. So the law is also I mean, as far as we are, the entertainment lawyers are concerned, we evolve and we we add new language.

You know, as it comes up. So yes. And then you've got like different rights that come up in different ways of consuming and all of that. Like I went to an event and there was a whole nother area of platform for consuming rights that, that came up and I thought, wow, you know, it just doesn't solve there's always something new, right? And then those rights were not in the contract. Right. But the catch all kind of created that. So that was like another revenue stream that they came up with like how to consume. Yeah. And then I want to add, you know, entertainment law is not so niche as you would think.

I have clients who are physicians, who have product lines, who need trademarking and copywriting. And, and they've got like there are social platforms now, I think it's become a lot more democratic in that we all have a phone, we all have a social media account, we all have YouTube. We all have, you know, all the different apps that people use and people are making content. Right? So so if I have a product, I'm a physician and I have a product that I want to sell and it's going to be promoted via social media, then I need an entertainment industry to take care of the social media, which is if.

You hire an influencer, you need an agreement with the influencer, right? Let's say you a fashion company, you hire models or you hire influencer. We call them content creators, content creator to put it up, for their followers, right? Niche marketing to their own audience. Right? You can really pick the kind of people you're trying to target is more precise now, right? Yes. You go to the right influencer for the service or product you have and so now you need to have an agreement with that person. And then you're creating all this work. You're hiring people to do that for you.

You need agreements with those people. You may want to trademark the name of your service or your product and, copyright any logos or things that you have, written or created or work that you've produced. So now a physician is now in the business of entertainment, right? Yes. And then even attorneys or any professional or you, you're, you know, you're making podcasts, you're in the business of entertainment. I'm just lucky enough to have shared so much time with Bernard and learned so much from him. And I'm I'm the layperson with a little bit more knowledge than an average layperson.

Well, it makes it more accessible to the rest of us. I hope so. Yes. That's the idea. But if he was with us, he could be doing this podcast. Now he's in the business of entertainment. Yes. Is what I mean. Right. And he would have done this in a second. Right. Or an attorney would be in the business of, you know, entertainment. So, so given that there are constantly new arenas popping up in the world of entertainment, I mean, we didn't have I used to think about a while ago, we didn't have podcasts to think about a while ago. Do each of those specialties require a specialist, or can you be, a general contractor, let's say, and be good enough in 27 different.

I think what you're you mean please correct me if I'm wrong is, as an entertainment lawyer, could you tackle all these different areas or do you need to specialize in one area? So that's a really good question. If you are working for a large company, large studio, they usually have different attorneys who specialize in one area. Right. They break it down even like with television scripted and non-scripted. Right. To some degree, yes. But, they're transferable skills. And if you, you need to keep updated and kind of otherwise, you know, you become obsolete.

Just kind of the same thing with medicine advances. You have to keep taking continuing legal education classes. Same thing with us as attorneys. You have to kind of keep up with it. To answer your question, if you're at the bigger studios and bigger production companies, there are attorneys who do just one, you know, they're lawyers. Like every time I have a client who's doing a podcast on a particular studio, I'm always dealing with the same lawyer. Or if I'm dealing with the music rights, I'm dealing with the same lawyer at a particular studio that I'm thinking about.

So you there are attorneys who just do one thing because it becomes easier and they're well versed in it, but you can potentially help clients in different areas. But there's some specific areas that, if I was advising someone, I would say, go to an entertainment lawyer who just does this one area, who just does like the finance part or just especially a specific kind of financing, just does that. I actually refer that out for a special kind of financing or special kind of music. I refer that out to somebody who does all they do. But for the other generalized forms of it, you know, an attorney who has been doing it for a while and has some experience and, you know, been around for a while, should be able to kind of help.

So, for example, we have this podcast, which, as you had said earlier, requires all kinds of agreements between different entities. And as I see as we're progressing more and more and more, that would be something that you could pretty much cover. Yes. Yes, yes. So I, you and I should I know the words. We'll take care of the rest later. How did you actually decide on entertainment law. I always wanted to be a doctor and personal things happened and I for various reasons I couldn't go away to medical school, even though I was accepted. I should say that, so I decided to go to law school, and there are a lot of transferable skills.

You know, you're counseling your clients, patients, you're protecting their well-being, the financial well-being and their careers. So there's a lot of common, skills there. I just, you know, my family, like I said, I was raised by somebody who's an artist as a painter. And when I got to law school, I thought to myself, did I make the right decision? Should I stay? Have stayed in the medical field until I took an entertainment law class or. The U.S is very entertainment heavy. The business school is right there. The film school is right there and very much into entertainment is in LA.

I took a couple classes and I just honestly was the only area of law that kind of spoke to me and I, and I wanted to kind of protect them and kind of make sure that things were done the right way. And, and you creating something, you're building something right, and you're out of nothing and you're supportive. Yeah. Field. Yeah. That's right. That's so kind of refreshing and lovely to hear. And noble on some level, I think. Yeah. Yeah. So and you mentioned that in your field oftentimes and maybe because there's a passion that attorneys have in this field for what they're doing or for the people that they're supporting that isn't necessarily had an in other areas of, of law that there's a reasonable expectation that there's some maneuverability in the financial situation, like we understand that you're doing this creative thing and that you have, you know, a -$2 in the bank.

But let's look at your projects and how much faith do we have in what you're doing? Yes, there's definitely some level of that going on. But then the lawyers also, I'm still paying my student loans, you know. So yeah, we have expenses too, right. And you've you've trained hard to do what you do. And everyone needs to of course respect that and understand. Right. We can't move on without you. We're not going to be in debt because somebody sues us in six years. Also, I should mention I don't do litigation. Mine is all transactional. Work is just writing the agreements for those I prefer my, you know, clients.

But if you do this part right, hopefully you can avoid the litigation part, right? That's the whole point. Catch the fire before it happens. Prevention. Right. There is a little bit more, room for that, especially for people who are just starting out. Your audience members, if anybody's in this area, they should feel like they can approach an entertainment lawyer and kind of, you know, see what can be done for them. I don't recommend doing that on a long term basis. But, you know, when you're starting out, definitely. And maybe better that than saying to yourself, well, there's no way I can afford any of these services beyond the fact that I also don't think I need these services because we are all friends and we're going to treat each other well forever.

That may be true, and that's fine, but there's even if that, you know, the ideal world utopia, even that if that were to happen, you still need to kind of know, okay, who's going to get what? How do you make decisions? How do you decide what you're going to do with this? How do you decide how are you going to release it? You know, how much money you want to take for this? And then what if you want to make other projects based on this? Who decides that? How do you, you know, take the next steps? So that's why. And how much do you want to burden yourself with all of that, that you don't really know that much about?

The risk of not being able to have enough time to do what you need to do creatively. Yeah, I don't recommend a layperson approaching that side. You're a very successful woman in what I think many of us think of as stereotypically a man's profession, particularly entertainment law. What's that like for you? Is it very male? I don't I. Maybe it's because I'm. Yeah. 68 and that's what I perceived, you know sort of. Yeah. There weren't that many women it seemed in, in law. Yes. There were plenty of actresses that needed to be managed by men. But maybe that is not the way it feels.

Currently, the demographics of law schools have changed. They're more coming to par 5050 with women and men students, although I think still at this stage of, you know, the workforce, men, may be more, represented than women are for obvious reasons. Yeah, entertainment is meh. They are male dominated. And also because of the hours, it's a lot of hours and it sounds sexy, but there's a lot of hard work, and sweat. Does sound sexy. It's. Yeah, but the actual work is there's a lot of hard work and long hours and. You know, really have to have a passion behind that.

You really do. What I say is a from a place of art. It really is. If I worked as hard in any other area of law, I would, you know, financially would be a lot further along. And it's not for the weak of heart. So I think those are the some of the reasons why you might see more men in this area. And, still, it's a, it's an area where I think emotions run high because you're supporting people who are coming from this creative feelings kind of place, you know, which. Yes, it is very much so. But at the end of the day, you want to do what's best for them and protect their rights.

I think there are definitely more women, now, but to some degree, what you said still applies. I can't tell you the number of times where people say, are you an actress? You know, you're an actress or even sometimes you know, yeah. I won't go there. Okay, but do you ever feel like you're, expected to be less than because you're a woman in this field? I don't even entertain that thought. You know, I grew up with two boys, two brothers, and I was going to go to medical school. I just, like, I just wasn't raised that way. It just, It doesn't. I don't think about it sometimes.

I, I am faced with it. And, it always surprises me because I don't expect it, I don't think that way. And I think that actually helps protect me. My blindness I think is a good thing. I can understand that because, you know, deep inside that you're able to do what you do. It doesn't matter what anybody else has to say. Yeah. Male or female. Yeah. You have to let it kind of. Yes. But definitely it does happen. Yeah. Still. It happens to me too, in my field, even still. And I am the same as you. You know, I have I have a lot of, men that work in the field that I'm in.

And they're a many of them. Not all of them. I mean, I think men are fabulous, kind of almost instinctually assume that they know more than I do about whatever it is we're discussing. And all I do is move forward with what I know, and that takes care of that. I mean, and it's not meant to belittle. It's it's meant to say, I'm here and I know what I'm doing and you know what you're doing. And we're, you know, basically going to come at this together. You're you're not going to overrule me. I'm not going to overrule you. But look, I am worth considering.

Right? And sometimes, it's even worse when other women. Sure. Feel that way. You know, you might be in a room and your client is female, but there are men around, and instead of, you know, they look to the men instead of to the woman. Yeah. So I find that more difficult than when the guys do it. When the guys do it, I. I'm kind of over it. Right. But when. Yeah, sometimes it happens with the females, the women. And that I find that more difficult. Well and according to Bernard, we all come sort of prepackaged with this ability to place women in a lesser position, all of us women and men and we need to stop doing that because women really, really deserve to be treated equally or even more than equal, because we are the individuals who carry the next generation.

It's I mean, that's just how the human body is. But I, I think so much of this is just innate. And, you know, across generations, women have been treated less than and we move it forward without even knowing that we're doing it at times, or not realizing that it's not the best way to move forward, that we just keep the status quo, that women are still second class, that women can't ever be. I just read a study. I don't know if you, I will send it to you that, women physicians, they're they are, they're patients. If they're surgeons, they have less mortality.

If the physician if the surgeon is female, and physicians who are female, their patients do far better than if your physician is male. So if I had a choice, I would go to the female surgeon rather than the male surgeon. So. And not just with their female patients, but also with their male patients. That makes perfect sense to me. So did this study speak to what the cause was? I don't want to misquote the the, study, but I think it's because women are more empathic. And they pay more attention to the environment and the signs. So I think that, yeah.

The information I want to know about. So scientifically, you know, proven so you know, people can say whatever they want and think whatever they want. The result is different. Right. So that would say to me that women are. Better at this because women probably right now are typically. A little. Better at being in touch with feelings than men are. So they're making decisions that are coming, as you're saying, from the heart. First and then using their skills on top of that feeling, knowing from a feeling place person first and then using their knowledge to address the package as whole.

And men have as much a chance to go there as women. We just all need to sort of. Gather. Together. Absolutely. I mean, women are tasked with rearing the next generation and raising a newborn, right? And newborns have limited ways of communicating right with their feelings and thoughts and emotions and cooing and, you know, and crying and. And by the time they're born, you know, we on some level have probably screwed them up a little bit already. And they're having they're not even born yet. So women have to be in tuned. Right. So the same set of skills kind of carry through.

Whether I feel I'm not a physician, I can talk to it. Although, you know, my brother's a physician, so some and I have many physician friends from observation the same kind of skills kind of transfer there where they're in tune and they're reading cues. Right. And same thing in my area of profession, my profession as a lawyer. You're reading the room, you're listening. You know, it might be things that your client really wants, but they don't know how to articulate it or they don't know that they really want it. And there's like, you know, you're almost a therapist or, you know, you're negotiating with the other side.

They're saying one thing, but you know what? They're really you know, you're reading four steps ahead or in between the lines, so to speak, the same kind of, empathy and being in tune with the environment. It helps. So I think that, they're complementary skills with, with, you know, men and women. And that's probably why we have a husband and a wife, a mom and a dad. The kid needs both complementary set of skills. So there is no, there's no reason to feel like one sex is incapable or, threatened by it or any of that. True. And I think all of us need to understand our feelings together.

All people. Absolutely. And starting here first as an individual, understanding what's going on inside and then seeing how what you're doing, what's going on inside of you is pretty much the same thing that's going on on the outside. The turmoil here is also the turmoil out there. Yeah, trauma that we were all, you know, we were exposed to dealing with it but letting it play out still. Yeah, absolutely. So you're going to continue to do this forever. You love it I do. I do as all consuming and Yes. So it's kind of I guess I've dedicated my life to it.

What about it? If there's one thing or a group of things brings you the most joy? What I know I've done well for my client. Yeah, we got the deal. We got the project finance. We got the talent we wanted. You know where we've been in negotiating for a project I'm working on and, you know, getting it done. Yeah, it's very gratifying. It's also very addictive because you're making something. Where's my next fix I see. Yeah. Like it. Well and creative people I think feel that way. You spending all this time composing a song or painting a painting and it's finished but you're not finished.

What's next. That felt really good. That felt really good. That's one of the things I love about you know creativity is this build and this build and taking it further and further and getting to a place where you recognize you're finished and then moving on to something else now with even more skill. For, for the next project. Right. Yeah. Same thing. You're doing all these interviews with you know very interesting people. So you know what is the next one. How is this going to lend to the next one. Yeah. And lucky me I get to talk with the likes of you.

And so thank you the wonderful. And it's very nice that. We're so thrilled that you were here today. Thank you for having we had a slightly different take on our whole premise, but I totally see our premise in our conversation, and we're talking about feelings and intellect and how the combination of the two help us all move forward, and how important it is to be aware that we're all feeling individuals, and we really must start and. The creative world is expressing us, right? Yeah. This is why we also invested in our writers and our filmmakers and our musicians.

Their art is an expression of the human experience, for sure. In fact, I think we need to have a podcast here some day about nothing but creativity. That would be great. Absolutely. Well thank you again. Thank you. Really appreciate it. And thank you for listening and watching. And follow us and come to our website. And now dot.