A New Sense of Normal: A Conversation with Niaz on Justice and Emotional Truth

Transcript auto-generated from the episode audio; formatting has been cleaned up, but wording is verbatim.

Hi, my name is Cynthia Marks, and I head up the Holistic Psychoanalysis Foundation, established by my late husband, Doctor Bernard Bail. Welcome to And Now Love. Doctor Kasravi is a national expert and advocate on criminal justice, social justice and racial justice. With more than 17 years of experience leading projects across the country. She is the founder and director of the Avalan Institute for Applied Research, a research, advocacy and training institute. She is also the former director of the Criminal Justice Program for the NAACP, and she holds a PhD in Criminology, Law and Society from the University of California at Irvine.

Doctor Niaz Kasravi was born in Iran and migrated to the U.S. with her family in 1984. During our first episode together, we talked about what justice means in the world of advocacy. Niaz also shared with us some of the ways that she passionately works to help others have their voices heard and be supported in their communities. Today, we want to dive in and discuss some of the topics that Niaz and others like her are currently addressing. Hello, Niaz. Hi, Cynthia. Thank you for being here again. Yeah, good to see you again. You're going to be our social advocacy expert.

I'm honored. Niaz is also on the verge of beginning her own podcast, which is going to be fabulous, I'm sure. So, like I said, let's dive in and you mentioned this to me the other day about feeling normal. So if you wake up every morning feeling normal, given the circumstances in our world, our big picture world, our smaller communities, our nation, what does that mean? If you think you're feeling normal. How can somebody feel normal today? I don't know. It's very difficult. I wake up every single day. I literally have a debate in my own head about, am I going to look at the news right away?

Am I going to wait? Take a breather, do my stuff, morning stuff, and then dive into it? Because I know as soon as I jump on that media or social media platform, I'm going to be bombarded with images that are completely heart wrenching, of people being whisked away by masked agents in unmarked trucks, people being starved to death, halfway across the world. And there is so much that is coming at us on a regular basis that I struggle to to decide, when do I want to expose myself to that? And I think our brains weren't really designed to be bombarded with such graphic and heartwrenching images and information on a regular and consistent basis.

And you can't really, because you have that same feeling. You sort of can't deny someone wanting to push that away because it is like you say, it's just heart wrenching on so many different levels. It's heart wrenching, and I get that. People may sometimes want to protect themselves and their families from being exposed to that level of trauma on a regular basis, and that's a real kind of concern. But there are boundaries to I think, that we have to be cognizant of around protecting our sanity versus living in ignorance and in la la land. Basically, I agree and I think that in a way, if you are protecting yourself and even your family and trying to create this pretty little bubble, you're not dealing with reality and you're creating in your own body a different sort of trauma, the human experience.

I think, requires us to be part of humanity. We have to find a way to do something to support what we believe is the truth. And we all have such different circumstances, and some of us are really struggling, really struggling just to put food on the table, just to get the job done. And, you know, you think, who has time to devote to this? But in some little way we've got to do something. And I think the less we do or if we are enabled to do anything because we can't get ourselves out of just this little protective bubble, we're burdening ourselves.

I think a couple of things come to mind. Number one, injustice isn't always done through action. By not doing anything you can also promote the injustice that is around you that you can and should have a hand in stopping and rolling back. Right. And I think we each have to figure out what those boundaries are for us in terms of protecting our own sanity. But I don't think pulling back and being in complete ignorance is the answer or a valid option right now for us. And all of this stuff is very frustrating and sad, and it makes you angry and depressed at some at some points, right?

But I think the antidote to all of that is action. And that can look different for everybody. Not everybody has to do the same things. Different things may be of concern to you, them than than to me. Right. So we got to choose what are the things that we really care about, and how is it that we want to address those things. Right. So by action I don't mean just like one thing like get out on the street and protest, right? It could be anything. It could be talking to your neighbor, seeing what they need. If you see that they are being impacted in these times, it could be talking to your kids and making sure they know what's going on so they can be aware just in the community.

Those are huge things. Yeah. So so action is can be defined very differently. But I think that is the antidote to how we're probably all of us are feeling. Yes. And I think to the positive side of this, for example, we've had quite the focus on immigration issues here in Los Angeles. And it's been lovely to see so much of Los Angeles coming together to support the people who are struggling with this issue. And I hear people saying, I don't know what to do, what can I do? What can I do? And and it's almost coming up with an instinctual response of, well, I can't keep these all of these people out of jail.

I can't keep them from this strife or whatever it may be, but maybe I can make sure they have dinner on the table tonight. Maybe I can babysit their kids for the day. And those things are huge. There's things you need to do if you are amongst the communities that are impacted, and there are things that you need to do and can do if you're on the outside and have the privilege of not yet being impacted, right. Because all of this is a slippery slope, it. Sure is right. And we can see that right now. We can see that and we can get into that in a little bit.

But as someone who's not being impacted, there are so many things you can. First of all, be aware and educate yourself about what's happening in your community, like what's happening to my neighbors, even those who may not look like me or have the same culture or religion or nationality. What is going on around me? Second of all, you can disrupt this authoritarian sort of narrative that's coming at us from all sides about demonizing certain communities, and particularly immigrant communities in this country. You can disrupt that narrative. You can document abuses that you see, especially if you're privileged.

Right. It's been actually heartwarming to see a lot of people from like, white allies who witness a kidnaping of an immigrant by and they take out their phone and they record what's happening, and they approach them and they ask for their badge number and their name and whether they have a warrant. Often they don't get anywhere but the act of disruption and standing up. It means something on its own. It's right. But it's also a slippery slope. I mean, America has had many waves of anti-immigrant like sentimentality throughout its history, but the most recent, let's say we look at this administration, it started in the first round, right?

But it wasn't this severe. When we got to the election the second time, we started hearing all of this rhetoric about immigrants committing more crime, which is not true. Right. And these basically lies that serve to anger and demonize anger people and demonize the other. Right. And then it started by we're only going to go after the violent criminals. Right? And then that's not the case, because we know a majority of people who've been swept, swept up in these, you know, raids. Have are not they're not that. And the violent criminals are going to be generally pretty hard to find because they're most aren't.

Right. And then it became about, you know, they're eating cats and dogs. Right. The craziest thing you ever heard. And that became everyone's afraid for their pets now. Right. And then it became about, well, maybe we can de naturalize some people based on not just criminal offenses, but maybe even civil offenses, which is what they're talking about. Right? Then you get all of this like dialog about control, people's freedom of expression and free speech, and people being harassed at the border because someone looks through their social media, or maybe they're a podcast host that said something that the powers that be don't like.

So where does the line stop? And I think if you just think that this is never going to affect me, I think that's a really shortsighted way of looking at how authoritarianism and really the road to fascism, which we're on right now, works. Yeah. Well, and I think keeping that in mind, this slippery slope, it's not me being affected right now, but if I'm just watching how quickly this is falling apart, I'm down the line and I better do something now to make a point and help the people that are unfortunately being affected now so that other people down the line will possibly not be affected in this.

It's I think we have to support at the very beginning, and it's really hard because it's so hard to buy into what's happening. You can't. Who could have imagined it? Yeah. And it does something to you. Watching injustice is traumatic, as you said. I remember when we used to work on prison issues and the death penalty, and there were a lot of conversations about the impacts of being a part of this brutal system on the guards and on the people who actually had to operate the death chamber. The watch chain. Injustice and violence and brutality, I think, really messes you up as well.

So, you know, not only is it the right thing to do to be involved, but there's all these other reasons that should prompt people to say this is not okay, and I got to do something. Yes. Even just watching the Marines and the National Guard here in Los Angeles and thinking about their families and. There's got to be immigration in and amongst most of those people. I mean, who here in the United States isn't in some way coming from someplace else, just about I mean, there are Native Americans, of course, but the rest of us came from somewhere. And I have often thought, what do these poor people who have to stand hard against this really feel inside?

Some of them? Not all of them, but some of them, like what a battle. It's tough. I think it's very tough. Like you said, we're all immigrants. What? America's with 250 years old. So unless you're a Native American indigenous person on this land, we're all either immigrants ourselves. The children are the grandchildren of immigrants. Right. And so that has been twisted. Very much so by throughout the history of the US, but especially by this kind of new wave of anti-immigration and anti-immigrant narrative. Right. But it's also, for me, it's been so heartbreaking and wild to see these videos of black and brown people masked up in unmarked cars doing this to other black and brown people.

I don't know what that does to you psyche psychologically. Right there, but it's got to be terrible. All you're looking at someone who who could be your sister. I try to understand it. I am sure a big factor of it all is financial. This is a job, but I'm sure people who followed Hitler's orders were only doing their job as well. So at what point do you like draw the line and say, I don't want to do this job because it's immoral? And I think that's a question that everybody who's in that position has to ask themselves. And we don't live in an easy society or a world.

We live in a hyper capitalistic nation that values monetary success almost above all else. Yes, it. Right. And so it's not an unveil. You got to survive. You got to put food on the table for your family. You got to save up for your old age, all the things that every human being is concerned about. But at what cost and what are the other options? Right. That is not the only option for our profession. It's easier said than done, I understand. Yeah. And as a as a marine, you didn't walk into that career thinking that you would be standing in front of this group of people and be responsible for sending them out of the country that they came to for safety.

Yeah, I think a lot of people enter these professions without thinking about some of the difficult positions. They may be put in based on what is happening domestically and even internationally. You think about the men and women who were sent abroad and were, for example, participated in that and the torture, that was happening in Iraq prisons. And, you know, these are these are not things that they probably thought they would be asked to do. But I think you have to consider that when you choose your profession and things you want to do in life, you have to kind of think much more down the line that that than at first it might seem.

Yes, I think that's really smart. And I think kind of goes along with just wanting to have this feeling of normalcy, you know, just I just am going to deal with this little package. And you know what I've been thinking about this. We just don't have the luxury to feel normal. We got to try and remain centered and balanced and it's going to spill over once in a while. And it's fine. You're going to get emotional, you're going to get angry. But we can't sit here and pretend that this is normal and let me just live a normal life. Unfortunately, that is not the era we're living in.

We got to deal with what the context that we're in. And so yes, it's an effort to try to feel some sort of normal every day, and you got to try to stay balanced. But I think ignoring it is only going to make it worse for everybody, including ourselves. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, we are all human, which means we are part of humanity. And humanity is what we have to support. We can't just be protecting our own little human selves because we're going to fall apart as humanity. So to talk a little bit about immigration, what are some of the ways that we can help those that are in fear?

Well we talked about that a little bit in the beginning. I think that first of all it's really important and I know this sounds you know no one wants to do more research. No one wants to like listen to the news and then have to go fact check it. You know. But we have to really do a little digging before we buy everything that is thrown at us by the media or by social media, I mean, a lot of social media platforms literally fired their fact checkers, right? And I think to a great extent, journalism in this country and that media apparatus as a whole, there's still some very integral, you know, people and shows and platforms, but as a whole has lost a level of integrity because it's become about profit versus truth telling.

And in order to get profit, you have to have more viewers. And in order to have more viewers, you have to be sensational. And so you got to make people feel things really quickly, you know, either angry or sad or happy or frustrated. Something that keeps people coming back. And in order to do that, they have to kind of give up the context and the complexity of the issues that the, you know, they are talking about and they're exposing people to. So in a lot of ways, all of us, whether we're impacted by this recent kind of development around immigration enforcement or not, we have to we have to educate ourselves.

We have to not take everything we see on media, our social media, at face value. They're still trusted sources that we can rely on that for the most part. You know, they might have their leanings, but they're not going to knowingly promote lies. And but we all have different ideas about what the truth really is. Yeah. And but if somebody is promoting an idea, for example, immigrants are responsible for, majority of crimes and violent crimes in America, and those numbers are going up. None of that is true according to the government's own statistics.

Right. And so all it takes is for me as an individual to be like, I wonder if this is true and kind of go and look up that study and just not take. And so it's a little annoying that we have to do a little bit more legwork. But I think number one is to really be aware of what's actual and what's not, and what's being bent out of shape and presented as the truth. And if you're impacted by sort of what is happening currently, it's really important to know your rights, carry your papers or copies, have it memorized. And number two, a loved one and an attorney, you know, all that stuff.

But also it's important to decipher fact from fiction as well, because I think part of characteristic of the times we're living in and out of the road to fascism. I will say this because I really believe that's what we're on, is to have people live in fear. And so we're constantly living in fear of like, well, if I post this and if I travel and maybe I shouldn't do this. And so we should actually be a little bit more aware about what's propaganda and what they're actually doing. So how many people have they actually de naturalized. They have. But for what and how long did it take.

Right. And so there is a balance to kind of having some sort of agency around how you feel and not living in fear every day, but being cognizant of protecting yourself. So to find these sources is totally easy for you because you know where to go and who's providing the truth if, well, this they're telling me that everybody is a violent criminal and that is hard for me to believe. Where do I go for the research? I have trusted criminal justice organizations that I go to on their website. But even then, like, you can pull up their reports and look at like where are they getting their crime data, for example.

And then you can click and it'll take you to the FBI kind of website that tells you the actual crime rates, you know, news outlets. I think the big ones for me, I always go to NPR. I'm definitely progressive. So I go to Democracy Now! I go to Los Angeles Times, Washington Post, New York Times, you know, all your big outlets. And then I do a little bit more digging after that. I'm wary of news outlets, for example, like Fox News that have in court admitted that they're not really news. And they, you know, they have promoted lies, for example, about the election having been stolen and things like that.

So you got to be wary of news outlets that actually have admitted that we're not really always news. I think we just don't live in a world where we can take anything we see on, the internet as complete fact without doing at least one more step of checking. We spoke about this earlier, before we had cameras in front of us about how the division amongst us is just growing and growing, and it's almost as if in the world of truth, even perhaps you pick a side and you uphold your side so much that you almost lose sight of what it is you're supporting.

You're just you just know you can't back down. How do we come back to the middle? I mean, part of what made America so great was it was a meeting of the minds. It was listening to each other. It was learning from each other, was not disrespecting one another. Because we. You have a different idea than I do. I am so concerned about this divide that we have. It's really sad, quite depressing. And I wish I had the answer to I mean, there are some, some there are, of course, some factors that to me are obvious. Right? I think that the age of the internet and technology has really allowed us to be divided based on things we follow and what the algorithms throw at us.

So I do think that a lot of what we need to do is sometimes just put the technology aside. And have conversations like this. You and I have talked about how sometimes when I post online, I'm very bold and I'm very potent. Yes, I love it. Thank you. Sometimes I sit there and I say, why am I even saying this? Right? Sometimes I'll, like, censor myself and be like, I've said this five times. No one's listening. No one's changing their minds. Not true. And keep it. Up. Thank you. But I think it's easier. It can be good in some ways, right? It's easier to be very bold and say exactly what you think.

Sitting in your home or in your office behind a computer desk. And you don't have to look the person you're saying this to at the AI, right? They're not fronting. You face to face. And sometimes that can lead you to do things to be more upsetting to them or be like somewhat even offensive to them. You sort of embolden. Insult, insult them, right? You're an idiot if you believe this. For example, we might type but I if I'm sitting with you and talking to you, I can disagree with you, but I'm not going to sit here and look at, well, I'm not. Some people might look you in the eye and say, you're an idiot for believing this.

I'll be like, this makes no sense to me. Why do you believe this? And I think that personal interaction has been really reduced to very minimal settings. That's so true. And our major form of communication now is limited. It's in bytes, it's in bits. And we can't have this sort of back and forth. And maybe I'm just old school. I always think this is probably have my grandparents felt when like the telephone was invented or like the computer, they thought, oh my God, this is this is the end of humanity. That's I don't know, but we mean, for heaven's sake, we're being driven around by driverless cars, and it's an effort to actually have human interaction.

It's so much easier to not interact with anybody. Even when you go to buy something, you just kind of go to the self-checkout line and just scan your phone and you're done, right? There's no communication. You don't get to say hello to the person who's helping you with your bags and talk about their day. My daughter, who is 23 now, obviously she's faced with all of this, as is everyone else in her age range. And above and below her age. But she has said to me more than once, mom, I'm so envious. When you grew up, you went out all day and you rode your bike with your friends, and you came home.

When you came home and you were in your community and you were sharing information back and forth and playing and talking and laughing and seeing each other. And she said, I don't know where to go for that. And I think she's doing a pretty good job. I'm proud of her, but she sees how everybody is in their own little zone, forming their own opinions about life, about truth, about what is a valuable experience and what is not. A valuable experience. Is just harder and harder to create those human spaces, those spaces where you go and play outside, where you don't have a phone at the age of eight.

Right. For, I think, families and parents who actually want to create this reality for their kids, it's really difficult because their kids go to school with a whole bunch of people who are always on their phone, who are always, like, tied to technology, you know? And so it's a real challenge to create that. But I agree with your daughter that how we grew up was really magical. I mean, our generations got to see both sides. You know, we kind of got to experience what it's like when technology got so advanced. Well, I wish there was a way for us to get back to that.

Maybe we have to get through this sensationalism of the internet and social media and kind of get to the other end of it and say, okay, so here are the things that are really good about it, and here are the things that are really terrible about it. How do we get away from the really terrible things? Because in the beginning, all we thought was, wow, this is super fabulous. Look at this great thing. Yeah, things come in waves and the pendulum swings back and forth, and I don't know what's going to happen with AI and technology. I am a believer that things need to be regulated.

I think I was reading as a European country, maybe the Netherlands, I'm not sure, but they passed a law that gave ownership of people's images and voices to themselves and protected them from AI, which is things we need to be doing. We do. But what a strange thing to have to think about. Yeah, and here did we not just totally deregulate. Yep. And that is so scary. And I imagine you know where we did have some guardrails. I was just thinking yesterday about how busy some people are now trying to figure out, well how can I take advantage of this new, this new thing I've been given where it's just free, free rein.

I can do whatever I want with this platform. Yeah, it's a powerful platform and a powerful tool, but it's so new. And I think just like everything else, it requires us to be engaged and to fight for protections and policies. You know, we always say vote, vote, vote, get out the vote, you know, but that happens, what, every two years, every four years, sometimes every two years, if you really want to vote in the midterm elections. But and then we step back. But this is a constant thing we ought to be engaged in. And so we have to be in communication with policymakers and people.

We elect an office to, to, to help us manage these things and let them know what we want. Right. And so just like anything else, we have to be on top of this because it is very powerful and it can be very beneficial. And if you don't use it, maybe you will fall behind, you know, in some circumstances. But then you have to also see the flip side of that and try to protect yourself against the negativity that comes with it or has potential for we wouldn't have gotten rid of slavery and segregation if it wasn't for regulation and government involvement.

Right. So we've deregulated things now, and whereas in Arkansas, they're building a whites only community, you know, so we're going backwards. In many ways, this current environment is making people feel so emboldened to say all the crazy things that they might have just thought, or maybe these things showed up as like microaggressions towards people, but now they're just out in the open. We have people bragging about, let's take ownership of the word Nazi. You have our Department of Homeland Security posting images on their of us, on their website or on their Twitter that basically promotes manifest destiny.

You know, the belief that God meant for the white man to conquer and expand through the US and settle the US and and, you know, be proud of your heritage was what it said. And so the guardrails are off. They are. And we. Need guardrails. Well, and this feeling emboldened I mean, there's this example at the very top, you know, and if that person at the very top can do this and get away with this and, you know, fluff his feathers and the feathers of those around him, why can't I, as an ordinary citizen, just throw stuff out there in the same fashion?

Yeah. And in some ways, I think it's good to see them for who they are. It's good to see and know what people really think, because that's the only way we can fight back if they're always lurking in the shadows, or if they're afraid to say that they actually want to take ownership of the word Nazi. I'd be proud of it. I'd rather know that. That's a really good point. And I think in ages past, people have always been in the shadows supporting things that aren't the best for humanity. But we didn't have access to them. We didn't have. They didn't have a place to have a voice outside of their little tiny community.

And you're right, now they've come out of the shadows to a large degree. Yeah. And what's been interesting is to see how many young people there are amongst the groups that are saying these things and feeling this way. And it's concerning because you always think that's the old generation, racism died with them or will die with them, or we've evolved. We know better going forward. Yeah. I mean, I'm not hopeless, right? This pendulum has to swing and I'm hopeful. I think if I were ever to become hopeless, I'd probably stop doing the work I do. I'm disappointed.

I'm frustrated, I'm scared. I don't know exactly what's going to happen, but I'm also hopeful. I've seen, surprisingly, to me at least, I've seen the younger generation rise up and take a stand on issues that their parents were afraid to to speak up on, on issues that were being criminalized, for example, what's happening in the Middle East. Even going back, it was not even that that far, far back was five, five years ago. We had one of the biggest sort of racial justice reckonings in U.S history in recent U.S history, after the murder of George Floyd.

And you saw these young people really come out in droves and support the movement. Now, a lot of our wins have been rolled back, but but it's in them. So I'm hoping that some of the crazy, scary stuff will be counteracted by equally forceful and just integrity based action and beliefs from younger generations. So who who, who don't subscribe to that and who see the flaw and the error in that? I think for a good many years we have had the luxury, a lot of us, not you, of being complacent. Everything's running along smoothly. I mean, obviously we've had lots of major upset, but generally things are running along smoothly and now they're not.

And how do we step out of the complacency? I think a lot of us know we have to, but it's like, my gosh, is so different than the way I've been living my life for all these years. And you were speaking of the vote and how most of us, you know, we get out and vote and I know for me, when I vote, I'm like, yeah, that felt good. I liked doing that. I feel like I'm part of a community and I'm showing support for something that I've researched and come to a conclusion on, and my government wants to know what I have to say, and that feels good. And I feel like a lot of these other things that we can be doing, calling our congresspeople and supporting our neighbors who are fearful would be even more potent than that.

It's like, yeah, I'm doing something. I have a voice that needs to be heard, and we all have a voice that needs to be heard. And it feels good to to do what you know is right. It's absolutely the antidote to hopelessness is taking some sort of action. And it's easier than you think. Calling your Congress, the congressmen and women writing letters. There are templates that, like multiple organizations, have prepared that all you have to do is kind of add your name or read off the script. But in doing that, like there's power in numbers, right? You might think, why would I send this form letter, the same template that everyone else sent, right?

First of all, often you can edit it, but it's a numbers game. You know, when we did the death penalty abolition campaign in Maryland, we had we set up a call center and where we connected voters to their elected officials in the state legislature to tell them how they felt about the death penalty. And how did you get that information known to the public there? There are databases that are used by call centers and these, political arms of various campaigns that you can tap into that has all the voter information. Who's likely to vote this way, who's a Democrat, who's a Republican, who's an independent, all of that.

So there's you know, we live in an information age. We live in an age of data is so importance and so much a factor of our lives more than we think it is. Right? We set up this call center and and these guys were overwhelmed by the number of calls they were. They were not prepared to get this many calls. Their their answering machines had room for like ten voicemail messages. So at some point they were really frustrated with the number of calls they were getting, which is fine. They need to be frustrated because that's when you act. You don't act when you're complacent.

No. No. And you right, you don't do something to strike out when you're completely happy. We are usually motivated by some sort of upset. Yeah. So so number is matter showing up matters. Signing those petitions, making those calls, all of that matters. That's part of the system that's been set up for us to use our voices and, I was speaking with a scientist yesterday who's ultimately going to be on our podcast. She's an epi geneticist. And as a scientist today, you know, she's losing her funding. She doesn't know how much longer she's going to be able to keep doing what she's doing, which is only fabulous stuff that help us understand who we are better than we ever did.

And she's been cut off. But meanwhile, she knows that and she's doing what she can to try to support her scientific community. She's making phone calls to representatives writing letters. And I said, wow, do you really feel like that's going anywhere? And she says, absolutely it is. We all have to do this. It is the process that was set up for us. So if you're not using it, you're not doing good for your own community. I mean, that is a it's sort of a, in a way, a hidden resource or a resource that's been downplayed because you really feel like you're not going to make a dent.

Yeah. Unfortunately, what we've been told about America in general is not the whole truth. Right? So as an immigrant, you come here, for example, thinking especially if you come from like repressive. We talked about this last time, repressive settings. You're like land of the free opportunity. And I've had all of that. Right. This is the reason I can do what I do and say. What I say is because I've had those opportunities in this country, so I'm not knocking all of that. And you wouldn't have had that where you. Were. I wouldn't have, right? Some of the stuff that's happening now is actually reminding me of some of the stuff that was happening back home in terms of like just telling of freedom of expression and freedom of speech and the kidnaping.

And you mentioned when the Marines were here in Los Angeles, I would drive by the federal building and I would see these orderly dressed up men in Army uniform arms with goggles and helmets and tanks and machine guns. And it was so reminiscent of growing up after the revolution in Iran. Giving me goosebumps. I had to do a double take the first time I drove by there, and I was driving and I was like, whoa, I have seen this before. I had the I had a similar experience. I mean, I born in the United States, but driving by the federal building in Westwood and it wasn't as extensive as what you're describing, but I thought, I have never in my life seen this.

I have never seen these men standing in front of this building doing what they're doing. This is a different world. And I've heard the stories of a few people, immigrants who came to this country expecting, rightfully so, what you described. And they say, okay, I, I'm not finding that here anymore. And why am I here? This is no better than where I was. At least I have my family where I was. I'm leaving. I think the lesson in all of it for me, early on, I learned this is not a place where your rights are handed to you on a silver platter, right?

You have to fight for them. And so I think the sooner we recognize that and accept that, that that's the only way anything in this country has ever changes as people have fought, people have put themselves in risky, uncomfortable, dangerous situations. From the very beginning. From the very beginning. So we there are a lot of opportunities in this country. There's a lot of luxury to be had. There's a lot of things that you can enrich your life with, much of which have been brought by immigrants. But none of your rights are going to be handed to you on a silver platter.

A lot of us have had, up until now, the luxury of being complacent. I remember having this conversation with some of my friends and family with the whole immigration enforcement kids and all the crazy things we're seeing, and I told them, you know, a lot of us who've been in this space are angry because we told you. We told you defund the police, not because we didn't believe that there should be like law and consequences for people breaking societal laws and norms. But because we felt the system wasn't working, it was too oppressive. It was too discriminatory.

There was no accountability there. You know, you didn't listen to us and you tried to paint us as radical. We said, abolish Ice. We have been saying abolish Ice from the get go. Look at where we are and what did we do? Even Democrats gave more funding to Ice. No one is saying we want to live in a lawless society. We just got to look at what works and what's actually humane. You know, I work in a field. I was having this conversation with somebody the other day. I said, I think everyone deserves due process, even the worst criminals. That's what the Constitution is about.

And the other day I was at a family gathering, and I have a family member who is a Trump supporter, and he was going off about, did you see this crime that was committed by this illegal immigrant on the New York subway? And I turned, I said, who cares who committed the like, do you care about the crime being committed and making sure crime is not committed and it's addressed and people are made whole? Or do you care about who commits a crime? So would you feel better if an American citizen had had committed this offense? That's such a good point.

I just I. Don't understand this mentality. Yeah. See, that's my frustration. There's a lot of that going on. Tell me I know you're just starting to formulate this idea of a podcast or where do you see yourself going with it? I'm so excited about it, I want it. I can't wait for you to begin. But no pressure. I'm excited to know, it's a new venture for me. I've always been sort of the research, advocacy academic, you know, activist and. You know, a lot of speaking. I do a lot of public speaking. I'm looking forward to creating a platform where we can have more of these conversations.

We kind of dissect the issues and really look at the context and bring an element of truth, humanity and compassion to some of the most relevant, some more controversial or very controversial issues of our time. Because I think it's so polarized out there, and much of the platforms for the left and the right are sticking to their guns, and they're talking points in the propaganda. And I just kind of want to bring it back down to the foundation of the argument and the foundation of just human compassion and and doing this work with integrity, which I think is missing in a lot of conversations.

Definitely a need to create spaces to have really honest, human centered conversations about the most sort of politicized and polarized and controversial issues. Of our time. That would be great. That sounds great. And you're the person for the job. It is so hard these days to know without doing a lot of research, which I know you're a big believer in. I agree with you to know what is propaganda and what is truth, and to be able to hear conversations like those that you're going to have. I think you'll be a trusted source and and those people that are choosing to listen are going to be able to come away and feel good about forming their opinions based on what they hear, you and your guests speaking about.

That's the hope. Let's hope so. Yeah. So when you know what it's called, you'll let us know. And when you're getting back to actually getting started and we could talk again. Yeah for sure. I would love to. The fabulous Doctor Bail, he would say that all of us need to do what we can to find our best self, to work from a place of authenticity in terms of our feelings. And that is also authenticity in terms of what we know. It's authenticity in terms of being able to tell the truth with confidence. And when we do those things, really, really, really, we're going to feel better about ourselves.

And when we feel better about ourselves, we're only going to lift up those around us. 100. Percent. That's my little soapbox. Okay, Niaz, thank you again. Yeah. You're welcome. Thanks for having me. Of course. And we'll see you next time. And thank you all for listening and watching. And follow us and ask us questions. And.